How much "following" is too much?

[HM Honey]

I think as others have said garlicpickle.... i wouldnt let anyone else decide for me what was acceptable behaviour from my own bees.

If YOU are not happy about it, change it. If YOU dont have a problem with it, then dont.

I personally dont mind being pinged by bad tempered bees tbh. Mine are usually ok but earlier in the year, I had two hives that were very bad tempered. Pinging me all the time, following me. At one point, I remember having to sit down and wait 20 minutes for them to stop. Obviously I could have requeened but I decided not to and the hive changed over the year into a nice well tempered hive, without any contribution from me.

 

[Barbarian]

I seem to disagree with the feeling on this thread. If they were my bees, I would be planning to re-queen next year.

You are getting bothered as you leave. People going to the smallholding after you would be bothered. Livestock on site might also be upset.

You can tolerate the behaviour now but in a year or two the trait could be passed on to new queens you might raise. You have another hive so it should not be difficult to raise a replacement queen without affected your brood production.

If I have an awkward hive then that is the one that I check last in a routine inspection.

 

[Swarm]

If I have an awkward hive then that is the one that I check last in a routine inspection.

Definitely.
HM Honey has expanded on my earlier post, temperament can change quite a bit throughout the season, which is why I asked if they are always like this.

 

[garlicpickle]

They were OK earlier in the year, but I believe they superseded the queen around the end of August - at the last full inspection I did I saw a sealed QC half way up a frame (also saw the existing queen who is a 2012 model) and left them to it.
Since then I went down to feed them several times throughout September and early October, but without opening the hive. Had a couple of followers even so. I did have the idea of going through some frames on a warm day in mid Sept to check stores levels as I'm not comfortable relying purely on hefting, but they didn't react well, then my smoker chose the wrong moment to go out, so I decided to leave them alone.

So it could be that the recent grumpiness and occasional following is down to the new queen. I'll leave them alone until spring and reassess. If they continue to be grumpy and follow-y I'll squish her and requeen I think.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

The feeding aspect is interesting; might they be under pressure from wasps or robbers?

 

[garlicpickle]

There weren't many wasps around the apiary this year and I never saw any evidence of robbing when I visited. I had to start feeding this hive at the very end of August as they had reared a lot of brood and eaten almost all their stores from the BB. I'd taken the supers off by then and there was very little forage until the ivy started.
My suspicion is the supersedure of the queen. Like I said I'll see what they are like in spring, if they are still grumpy I'll raise a new queen from my other colony and replace her, or maybe buy one in.
I have no control over the genetics of the drones in this area as the guy I share the site with has 6 hives there, and I think there's a few other beeks in the vicinity.

 

[alanf]

I have no control over the genetics of the drones in this area as the guy I share the site with has 6 hives there, and I think there's a few other beeks in the vicinity.

Check in Beebase, should report the number of registered apiaries within 10 km. Unless you're very rural, it will probably be three figures - 200 here. Your queen could be mating with 20 drones from any of those, they will travel. You only need one or two drones to pass on aggression and the workers are harder to handle.

I have a colony that are fine over the summer but they get a bit defensive this time of year, could that be anything like yours? The current queen's mother produced bees that were more aggressive than I'd like all year long. Not terrible, just not ideal. I had her down to replace, but they superseded her in 2011. They were fine early 2012 and I thought I'd struck lucky because they're also one of the most productive. But they turned a little defensive later in the year, and exactly the same pattern this year. No other obvious cause, food stress or robbing and the pattern has repeated despite trying them on a different site. So I'm left with genetics as the most likely influence. I can live with them as they are but probably not first choice for next generation.

 

[pre1mjr]

Check in Beebase, should report the number of registered apiaries within 10 km.QUOTE]

How do you check that? I've just looked on Beebase and can't figure it out.

Thanks

 

[garlicpickle]

You log in and click "My Apiaries" on the left of the screen, then select the apiary in question (if you have more than one)
There are apparently 188 registered within 10 km of me, and I'm sure there's a good many more unregistered ones!

 

[alanf]

You log in and click "My Apiaries" on the left of the screen, then select the apiary in question (if you have more than one)
There are apparently 188 registered within 10 km of me, and I'm sure there's a good many more unregistered ones!

That's it. There are unregistered apiaries, but it's also minus apiaries that are no longer in use or seasonal and minus beekeepers who have stopped but not deleted their apiaries. There is also the suspicion that some ways of registering shared apiaries can appear as several apiaries. For reporting purposes the RBI will use their working knowledge and the registered total to produce an estimate of actual numbers. That can vary by area. A typical calculation is registered * 1.25 (unregistered allowance) * 3 (average hives par apiary).

So 188 apiaries, the RBI might estimate that as around 700 hives within 10 km. Any of them could be the source of the 15-20 drones that could mate with your queen. Sounds like a lot, but remember that 10 km square radius is 314 square km so the density would be not much more than 2 hives per square km. My reading of the numbers is that it's quite easy to get a hive of "followers" if a drone or two carrying that trait mates with your queen. On the other hand, any queen she lays has only a minority chance of carrying that trait forward since most of the drones that could be the father do not carry a following trait. Open mating over most of the country carries the risk of undesirable traits appearing one generation and disappearing the next, that's just the way it is. The best most of us can do is watch out for the hives with real problems and requeen asap to reduce the number of drones in the area carrying bad traits.

 

[pargyle]

You log in and click "My Apiaries" on the left of the screen, then select the apiary in question (if you have more than one)
There are apparently 188 registered within 10 km of me, and I'm sure there's a good many more unregistered ones!

Well, that's probably about right for our area ... Fareham BKA has just over 100 members and Portsmouth have about the same number ... slightly more .. and the 10km to the West and North would take it into Meon Valley and Southamptons areas. I was quite surprised until I thought about it ... I assume that all BBKA members will be registered so, as you say, there are going to be a few who don't bother.

 

[garlicpickle]

I also suspect that some people who just keep a hive or two in the back garden might not bother registering with Beebase. I mainly signed up so I would get alerts if there were any disease outbreaks in the area. But there's probably people who keep bees "under the radar" so to speak.

I'm not sure how it works with shared apiaries, I know my fellow beek is registered but although I put my location in as accurately as possible, it doesn't show me as sharing the site with anyone.

 

[alanf]

I also suspect that some people who just keep a hive or two in the back garden might not bother registering with Beebase. I mainly signed up so I would get alerts if there were any disease outbreaks in the area. But there's probably people who keep bees "under the radar" so to speak.

I'm not sure how it works with shared apiaries, I know my fellow beek is registered but although I put my location in as accurately as possible, it doesn't show me as sharing the site with anyone.

That will be two apiaries then, I'm sure there are association sites with a "dozen" apiaries within metres of each other. For inspection purposes it doesn't matter, if there's a disease outbreak they all show as in range and turn up on the contact list.

Whenever you see or meet an inspector there's a reminder to register, and many associations have been encouraging it for a few years. I suspect that most new beekeepers who go through a course register but few remove themselves if they give up after a year or two. Registration percentage has been increasing, ever since it was opened to the public to add their own bees. Which is why any claims that "the number of hives within 10 km of X have doubled in five years" are just nonsense; it's largely changes in registration.

 

[garlicpickle]

I haven't heard from or seen an SBI as yet, how does it work? Do they just get in touch if they want to come and inspect? Or do you only tend to hear from them if there's been a problem elsewhere in the vicinity?

 

[alanf]

I haven't heard from or seen an SBI as yet, how does it work? Do they just get in touch if they want to come and inspect? Or do you only tend to hear from them if there's been a problem elsewhere in the vicinity?

The emphasis changed recently, I'm not an inspector, this is just what I pick up in conversation; they are all experienced beekeepers in their own right, so worth talking to. The RBI/SBI used to spend most of the summer inspecting apiaries on request, which meant that many association apiaries were seen once a year. However there were never enough of them to inspect every hive every year and they were inspecting a lot of "low risk" hives so there has been a change of strategy.

The change is that while they still deal with actual and suspected disease outbreaks, if there is any other time it should be spent on education. So you see them if you go to a talk or disease identification day, mostly arranged by local associations. You see them at shows, when they also run disease workshops. They will inspect the lots before organised auctions if there are live bees. They will come and inspect if you report a likely disease case. And you will see them if you are registered on beebase and there is a disease outbreak within 3 km, in which case they will be in touch and ask when they can see your bees. When tracing disease, they also ask if there are any other bees you know about locally which is an attempt to account for unregistered keepers.

 

[Elaine]

I guess they are so busy with outbreaks or suspected disease that they don't have much time for random visist.

My sister was inspected in the summer after someone contacted the RBI to tell them that she had a new colony that had "come from Hampshire". The inspector phoned her, and arranged a mutually convienient time to visit. She says they were very helpful, and interesting to talk to. ( and bees given clean bill of health )

 

[garlicpickle]

I can imagine they are a mine of info, I'm kind of hoping I'll be on the list at some point

 

[alanf]

I can imagine they are a mine of info, I'm kind of hoping I'll be on the list at some point

For a visit? I don't think you do, it will mean you have a disease outbreak close by. Best keep an eye out for any talk or disease workshop they are giving within range and go along. The advice they give is sound, but can come up against restrictions to be within the general Defra and VMD approvals. For instance they will never recommend varroa treatments that are outside the VMD approvals scheme so they will tell you some beekeepers use it, but won't suggest that you do.

 

[garlicpickle]

hmmm I didn't mean in that instance - I was more hoping for a random visit "just because" my hives haven't been inspected yet But I guess as you say, they are probably too busy to do spot checks when there are no reported problems in the area.
There was a bee disease day last year which I didn't attend, but I think Philip (pargyle) did and found it informative.

 

[beeno]

You log in and click "My Apiaries" on the left of the screen, then select the apiary in question (if you have more than one)
There are apparently 188 registered within 10 km of me, and I'm sure there's a good many more unregistered ones!

Hi garlicpickle,
Thanks for the post. Shan't ever worry about not having any drones if the need arises - 236 apiaries in my area! Took the opportunity to update my records as well. Also on bee inspectors. They are very friendly and helpful, but don't have time to visit unless you suspect decease. You may be lucky to catch one on the phone, but usually they are out and about. Our association invites our regional bee inspector for a 'winter talk' which is always very interesting. Nice to have met the man, if you should ever need to call him in.