How many jars of honey in a year?

[KittyB]

I started with a hive kept in my garden by a friend who promptly moved to Wales. After 3 years seeing it swarm I decided it needed to be taken care of, I had no experience, no training . That summer I took 70lb, the next year nothing then 135, 219, 120.
I started with 8oz jars but use 12oz now.

That's really impressive, your bees obviously love you

 

[BigAshW]

Well again ... I'm not sure bees in the hive would be able to replicate the conditions in a drying room...even if it did happen in Bob Binnies place ?

Beeswax is impervious to water ... even in a thin layer... there is no hard evidence that says honey can be reduced in water content through completed cappings that I can find... but I await someone to show me some and I'll stand correction ...

I agree certainly a drying room would have very different conditions to a hive. I don't think it's impossible to do mechanically but doubt bees could do it themselves as they'd have to sacrifice their brood to drop the humidity that much.

 

[Nige.Coll]

If cappings touch the honey then it can have some effect on the water content of the stored honey. You'll see it weeping from the stored cells.
Bee in damp climates like AMM have domed cappings and leave an air gap between the cappings and honey to stop this happening.
Clever little buggers aren't they.

 

[Antipodes]

Well again ... I'm not sure bees in the hive would be able to replicate the conditions in a drying room...even if it did happen in Bob Binnies place ?

Beeswax is impervious to water ... even in a thin layer... there is no hard evidence that says honey can be reduced in water content through completed cappings that I can find... but I await someone to show me some and I'll stand correction ...

The American Carl Killion researched considerably on drying honey while it’s in the comb and did it successfully. Page 95 of his book is "Removing Moisture From Comb Honey". It is not a new discovery of mine or anything. Armed with a refractometer and then time and interest, I've conducted my own simple tests on honey in hives. Do you accept that capped honey can gain moisture sitting around out of the hive?

https://workerandhive.com/products/honey-in-the-comb-by-carl-e-killion

 

[Antipodes]

If cappings touch the honey then it can have some effect on the water content of the stored honey. You'll see it weeping from the stored cells.
Bee in damp climates like AMM have domed cappings and leave an air gap between the cappings and honey to stop this happening.
Clever little buggers aren't they.

I took this close-up photo of capped rainforest leatherwood honey last year. Intriguing to see the variations in thickness/covering of the wax particularly between the cells.

 

[pargyle]

Do you accept that capped honey can gain moisture sitting around out of the hive?

https://workerandhive.com/products/honey-in-the-comb-by-carl-e-killion

It depends on whether the cells are properly capped.... I don't accept that, as a matter of course, capped frames of honey will absorb atmospheric moisture through the wax. I would imagine that in a very damp atmosphere there is a faint possibility ... but I've got a frame of capped honey in a super in the Keter container in the garden (it's not totally weather proof - although the stack of supers is sealed) and I know what the % was when it went into the store (It's one that got missed when I extracted) and I very much doubt that it will either be:

a) Fermented
b) any significant increase in water content

I will check ... but it's been a pretty damp winter so it has had every chance ...

I don't have the Killion Book so not familiar with what he did in 1943 ?

 

[Curly green finger's]

If cappings touch the honey then it can have some effect on the water content of the stored honey. You'll see it weeping from the stored cells.
Bee in damp climates like AMM have domed cappings and leave an air gap between the cappings and honey to stop this happening.
Clever little buggers aren't they.

You learn something everyday

 

[Antipodes]

It depends on whether the cells are properly capped.... I don't accept that, as a matter of course, capped frames of honey will absorb atmospheric moisture through the wax. I would imagine that in a very damp atmosphere there is a faint possibility ... but I've got a frame of capped honey in a super in the Keter container in the garden (it's not totally weather proof - although the stack of supers is sealed) and I know what the % was when it went into the store (It's one that got missed when I extracted) and I very much doubt that it will either be:

a) Fermented
b) any significant increase in water content

I will check ... but it's been a pretty damp winter so it has had every chance ...

I don't have the Killion Book so not familiar with what he did in 1943 ?

I'm not sure I'll convince you because I have to get you to come a long way from "patently not true", but see comments by Wally Shaw, where he calls the cappings "slightly permeable".... page 4

https://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/wbka-harvesting-honey-v4-ENG.pdf
And described here as "somewhat porous"

https://peacebeefarm.blogspot.com/2012/12/moisture-in-honey.html
This morning I took a reading from capped honey that I have left to the bees. Capped months ago and plenty of time from the braula larvae to tunnel as you can see! The water reading is 14.5 per cent. I didn't take a reading of it when it was first capped, but I've not seen freshly capped honey at 14.5 here. Photos of frame included showing where the sample was taken and the reading from the refractometer.

 

[Nannysbees]

That's really impressive, your bees obviously love you

That's impressive not many people would have taken that on, that's fab

 

[gmonag]

Slightly off topic.
Do you treat for Braula at all?

 

[pargyle]

I'm not sure I'll convince you because I have to get you to come a long way from "patently not true", but see comments by Wally Shaw, where he calls the cappings "slightly permeable".... page 4

https://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/wbka-harvesting-honey-v4-ENG.pdf
And described here as "somewhat porous"

https://peacebeefarm.blogspot.com/2012/12/moisture-in-honey.html
This morning I took a reading from capped honey that I have left to the bees. Capped months ago and plenty of time from the braula larvae to tunnel as you can see! The water reading is 14.5 per cent. I didn't take a reading of it when it was first capped, but I've not seen freshly capped honey at 14.5 here. Photos of frame included showing where the sample was taken and the reading from the refractometer.
View attachment 24867View attachment 24868

I think you are taking an unusual and infrequent occurrence and presenting it as a common event. I said I could understand that in some circumstances (thin cappings, high humidity, storage conditions outside the hive etc) that there could be a transfer of moisture into the honey and Wally's pamphlet says:

" but in a wet season it is not uncommon forhoney to pick up water through the slightly permeable cappings, especially if combs are left on the hive as the number of bees is rapidly diminishing. High water content(sealed) honey can also occur in hives where the number of bees has been radicallyreduced by swarming. If it is on the borderline for water content, honey thatgranulates is more prone to fermentation. This is because water expelled duringcrystallisation causes honey in the interstices (between the crystals) to have ahigher water content which may allow yeasts to become active. "

But .... Let's go back to your original post:

"And sometimes they cap it too wet and then continue drying it once it is capped."

I remain unconvinced that this happens ...

 

[SumpNut]

Leicestershire border with Derbyshire.

I'm a new beekeeper and live South of Derby close to the Leicestershire border, hopefully I can get some good yields like yours!

Fingers crossed the swarm I caught last year share similar genes to your stock

 

[mbc]

Beeswax is impervious to water.. capped honey cannot be ripened further ? I've never seen anywhere that suggests it can...

Water exists in more states than liquid, cappings are a semi permeable membrane moisture in the air can move through.

 

[pargyle]

Water exists in more states than liquid, cappings are a semi permeable membrane moisture in the air can move through.

The original post which still seems a nonsense to me was that Bees continue to reduce the water content of honey after they have capped it in the cells ... I still have seen no evidence that this is what the bees do. I am not disputng that, in certain circumstances, moisture could pass into the stored honey ... I'm questioning whether the bees are capable of ripening capped honey.

 

[Antipodes]

The original post which still seems a nonsense to me was that Bees continue to reduce the water content of honey after they have capped it in the cells ... I still have seen no evidence that this is what the bees do. I am not disputng that, in certain circumstances, moisture could pass into the stored honey ... I'm questioning whether the bees are capable of ripening capped honey.

It's clear in your initial response, (Beeswax is impervious to water.. capped honey cannot be ripened further ?... ), what you were asserting. I referred you, amongst other things, to comments by Jenkins, Shaw and the Killion research. It seems from your later responses that you now accept that it is not impervious, so at least that is something. Water vapour can pass through plastic too actually, and much more research has been published on that.
Bees are truly expert at drying honey and I can't work out how they dry the leatherwood it in the rainforest with the humidity almost always above 55 per cent, and I can't find too much written about that ....so that will have to remain a mystery for a while yet. I've found they need time to do it properly once the honey is capped, so I'll keep giving them that.

 

[Antipodes]

Slightly off topic.
Do you treat for Braula at all?

Funny you should ask, as I'm about to get a bit of tobacco smoke on a queen with a couple of braula on her. I really need a little mini smoker to puff it over her.

 

[pargyle]

It's clear in your initial response, (Beeswax is impervious to water.. capped honey cannot be ripened further ?... ), what you were asserting. I referred you, amongst other things, to comments by Jenkins, Shaw and the Killion research. It seems from your later responses that you now accept that it is not impervious, so at least that is something. Water vapour can pass through plastic too actually, and much more research has been published on that.
Bees are truly expert at drying honey and I can't work out how they dry the leatherwood it in the rainforest with the humidity almost always above 55 per cent, and I can't find too much written about that ....so that will have to remain a mystery for a while yet. I've found they need time to do it properly once the honey is capped, so I'll keep giving them that.

OK ... I give in...believe what you want. Life is too short to feed your need to be right.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I referred you, amongst other things, to comments by Jenkins, Shaw and the Killion research.

I can't recall me ever saying that bees will continue to dry out honey after capping, if I did, I must have been drunk typing it. I just checked that post you accredited to me, and I said no such thing, what I said was the exact opposite - Sealed honey stores absorb water if kept in damp conditions yes, so don't try and twist my words to bolster your theory.Bees capping unripe stores and then commencing to reduce the water in it. - sounds a bit fantastical to me.

 

[Antipodes]

I can't recall me ever saying that bees will continue to dry out honey after capping, if I did, I must have been drunk typing it. I just checked that post you accredited to me, and I said no such thing, what I said was the exact opposite - Sealed honey stores absorb water if kept in damp conditions yes, so don't try and twist my words to bolster your theory.Bees capping unripe stores and then commencing to reduce the water in it. - sounds a bit fantastical to me.

The following is what you said in the post I referred Pargyle to.

"through the air, honey is hygroscopic, eventually the water will get through the cappings, just take a frame of honey out of the hive and leave it lying around for a few weeks and see what happens."

I referred Pargyle to your words to try and help him come to grips with the fact that he needed to further consider the truth of his assertion in post #53, as clearly you said water can pass though the cappings. He previously, very obviously, thought it could not...see post #53. There is not a "one way only" moisture valve on the cappings. Water can be removed from capped honey, (Killion) and the bees can do that in the hive too if they are strong enough in number (the sort of numbers needed to gather surplus honey). How do you think the honey I tested yesterday got down to 14.5 per cent moisture? I haven't had it drying in a room with a dehumidifier.

 

[user 819]

Any way back on topic I delivered to a family tonight and whilst there noticed a top bar hive in the garden and mentioned it, the guy was taken a back saying how die you know that. I replied I'm a know it all.
I asked if it was for decoration or actually housed a colony, to which he said it does and last year it was really good as we got 10 jars out of it. I was in humbug mood and said they quite often give poor yields as he thought 10 jars was excellent to which I replied my vertical double brooder returned 120 lbs by Mays end.