How many jars of honey in a year?

[Antipodes]

OK ... I give in...believe what you want. Life is too short to feed your need to be right.

Right, so not quite the thanks I might have expected for teaching you that water can pass through wax cappings.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Any way back on topic I delivered to a family tonight and whilst there noticed a top bar hive in the garden and mentioned it, the guy was taken a back saying how die you know that. I replied I'm a know it all.
I asked if it was for decoration or actually housed a colony, to which he said it does and last year it was really good as we got 10 jars out of it. I was in humbug mood and said they quite often give poor yields as he thought 10 jars was excellent to which I replied my vertical double brooder returned 120 lbs by Mays end.

He'd spent ages getting it going and now you've peed on his bonfire

 

[pargyle]

Right, so not quite the thanks I might have expected for teaching you that water can pass through wax cappings.

There's so much to learn on here and over the years I've learnt so much - but there's always an exception. You must be the only person that I know in beekeeping who believes that bees can ripen capped honey ? I'll look for improving my knowledge elsewhere I think.

 

[mbc]

There's so much to learn on here and over the years I've learnt so much - but there's always an exception. You must be the only person that I know in beekeeping who believes that bees can ripen capped honey ? I'll look for improving my knowledge elsewhere I think.

And me Phil, see my semi permeable membrane post.

 

[user 20297]

Right, so not quite the thanks I might have expected for teaching you that water can pass through wax cappings.

My interest in this debate is prompted by the entertainment value of the posts and the relentless ripostes provided by both parties. But I particularly like the dissection of the statements of others conducted by @Antipodes.
There is a report on a piece of academic research carried out by a UK university, which seems to have confirmed that in experimental conditions, " Carnauba wax had a much lower permeability than beeswax."
From that statement I think the suggestion that beeswax is permeable is true. They were only dealing with very thin coatings of wax in artificial conditions, but the timespan for this was measured in weeks.
I trust that by pointing this out I have brought in more questions than answers.

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/145122/

 

[pargyle]

And me Phil, see my semi permeable membrane post.

Yes .. but do you really believe that bees will ripen honey further in the hive after it has been capped ? It takes a lot of effort in terms of sheer physics to evaporate water from anything and I really can't see how:

a) Bees would be able to create sufficient humidity gradient to draw moisture out through capped cells. I can see that by fanning they ripen the nectar as the simple passing of air across the uncapped nectar will evaporate the water content but - once the cells are capped there is no airflow across the honey surface.

b) The average humidity in a hive is in excess of 80% so, if the supposition holds true that moisture passes through the wax cappings - why does the opposite not happen and the capped honey continually absorb moisture ? Honey is hygroscopic ... expose it to a positive humidity gradient and it will absorb moisture. I often take frames of honey out that have been left after winter and there is no appreciable difference in water content to those at the beginning of winter.

If cappings are even semi-permeable we would see some evidence of this happening.

I'm sorry Ceri ... I love your queens but it just does not make any sense ... your bees are super bees so I'll watch this summer and see if they can manage what I think is nigh impossible under hive conditions.

 

[pargyle]

My interest in this debate is prompted by the entertainment value of the posts and the relentless ripostes provided by both parties. But I particularly like the dissection of the statements of others conducted by @Antipodes.
There is a report on a piece of academic research carried out by a UK university, which seems to have confirmed that in experimental conditions, " Carnauba wax had a much lower permeability than beeswax."
From that statement I think the suggestion that beeswax is permeable is true. They were only dealing with very thin coatings of wax in artificial conditions, but the timespan for this was measured in weeks.
I trust that by pointing this out I have brought in more questions than answers.

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/145122/

Come on .... " The permeability of thin (sub and low micron thickness) natural waxes was measured ..."

If you make stainless steel thin enough you could desribe it as semi-permeable on a sub-atomic level.

 

[mbc]

Come on .... " The permeability of thin (sub and low micron thickness) natural waxes was measured ..."

If you make stainless steel thin enough you could desribe it as semi-permeable on a sub-atomic level.

The thing with osmotic pressure differentials over a permeable membrane is that the difference can be very small but the 24/7 nature of bee nest activity can make a big difference over time.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It makes me wonder then why do bees not, as a matter of course just cap the unripe honey to be ripened later at their leisure, rather than leave it uncapped for ages during a flow before finally capping it when the moisture level is sub 18%

 

[mbc]

I dont think anyone's arguing it's not much easier for the bees to ripen honey without cappings, just that change can also occur post capping, albeit fractional.

 

[pargyle]

I dont think anyone's arguing it's not much easier for the bees to ripen honey without cappings, just that change can also occur post capping, albeit fractional.

Which brings us neatly back full circle to where I questioned the original post " And sometimes they cap it too wet and then continue drying it once it is capped."

I think we need to put a wax cap on this now .,. if it ever happens (and I have doubts) it is such a marginal event as to be irrelevant in normal beekeeping terms. I don't think it's something that has ever been proved and frankly, as it appears to be somewhat irrelevant - probably never will be !

I won't be putting capped frames of honey in a dessicator any time soon to see if I can prove or disprove Anipodean Theory ....

With any luck there's a PhD student of media and social studies out there desperately looking for an inconsequential topic to create a thesis and will be along in a couple of years to provide the answer.

 

[masterBK]

Theoretically the water content of capped honey could reduce a little in sealed cells. It is well known that many nectars contain sucrose especially that from Borage. Bees process the nectar adding the enzyme Invertase (sucrase) which inverts the sucrose splitting it into its constituent monosaccarides. The process is called hydrolysis because water molecules are used up in breaking the bond between the glucose and fructose (with the OH going to the glucose and the H to the fructose). One molecule of water would be used for every molecule of sucrose. This enzyme is still present in the honey and will carry on working on the residual sucrose in the honey within the sealed cells. I suppose the process could also occur in sealed buckets of extracted honey as long as it hasn't been heated too much (which would denature the enzymes).

 

[mbc]

Which brings us neatly back full circle to where I questioned the original post " And sometimes they cap it too wet and then continue drying it once it is capped."

I think we need to put a wax cap on this now .,. if it ever happens (and I have doubts) it is such a marginal event as to be irrelevant in normal beekeeping terms. I don't think it's something that has ever been proved and frankly, as it appears to be somewhat irrelevant - probably never will be !

I won't be putting capped frames of honey in a dessicator any time soon to see if I can prove or disprove Anipodean Theory ....

With any luck there's a PhD student of media and social studies out there desperately looking for an inconsequential topic to create a thesis and will be along in a couple of years to provide the answer.

My take home from thinking about all this capped honey is that the situation is far from static and if you timelapsed a portion of comb over time in an active colony you'd probably be amazed at how dynamic the situation is, especially in the spring, when bees will uncap, move about , use some and recap comb in a fairly continuous flow of work.
The idea of honey getting ripe and being capped and then job done and nothing changes until a beekeeper comes along to harvest is unlikely to be a truthful picture.

 

[pargyle]

Theoretically the water content of capped honey could reduce a little in sealed cells. It is well known that many nectars contain sucrose especially that from Borage. Bees process the nectar adding the enzyme Invertase (sucrase) which inverts the sucrose splitting it into its constituent monosaccarides. The process is called hydrolysis because water molecules are used up in breaking the bond between the glucose and fructose (with the OH going to the glucose and the H to the fructose). One molecule of water would be used for every molecule of sucrose. This enzyme is still present in the honey and will carry on working on the residual sucrose in the honey within the sealed cells. I suppose the process could also occur in sealed buckets of extracted honey as long as it hasn't been heated too much (which would denature the enzymes).

However ... it's still not happening through the wax cappings ?

 

[pargyle]

My take home from thinking about all this capped honey is that the situation is far from static and if you timelapsed a portion of comb over time in an active colony you'd probably be amazed at how dynamic the situation is, especially in the spring, when bees will uncap, move about , use some and recap comb in a fairly continuous flow of work.
The idea of honey getting ripe and being capped and then job done and nothing changes until a beekeeper comes along to harvest is unlikely to be a truthful picture.

I can't disagree with that ,,, I see similar movements in my colonies .. if the bees feel the need to move or re-engineer anything they are remarkably adept at doing it ... I sometimes marvel at what they achieve.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

View attachment 24885

However ... it's still not happening through the wax cappings ?

Granted it may or may not be accurate but if the beelore about honey being found in the pyramids has any truth in it I wonder what it's water content was

 

[sean-a]

Worse in Europe.

BBKA News had a summary of the Copa Cogeca (Euro agri. interest org.) report of 40% average drop in yields. Hungary lost 90% of the acacia crop, Portugal 80% drop, parts of Italy 70-80%.

Yet Aldi are still pumping out "Honey" at 85p a jar

 

[ericbeaumont]

The report stated that despite the 2020 reduction in EC honey production there was no consequent price increase. I recall Goran describing the pitifully low price for honey in Croatia.

Check the reviews of the Aldi honey:
This turned my green tea ink black and made me sick, drank a good few mouthfuls before I noticed!! What does a blend of non EU Honey mean, there are no ingredients on my jar? I suspect this might contain rubbish from China, shocking Aldi!!

Kind of like golden syrup to be fair.

Sugar syrup in a jar.
In other words, a con.

 

[madasafish]

He'd spent ages getting it going and now you've peed on his bonfire

Based on my TBH experiences he is doing very well to get 10lbs of honey.

 

[user 819]

He didn't say 10lbs just ten jars, I didn't ask what size though.