How dark is Mellifera?

[B+.]

This is from a program I use for morphometric assessment. I thought it might illustrate just how dark A.m.m. really is.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes you can hardly see that the bee is stripey at all.

 

[Madge]

That's interesting seeing them side by side, B+. I've heard that Amm are more stocky than the other races - is that so? I imagine I can just about see that on that picture.
Kitta

 

[B+.]

That's interesting seeing them side by side, B+. I've heard that Amm are more stocky than the other races - is that so? I imagine I can just about see that on that picture.
Kitta

I'm not really an expert on A.m.m. assessment to be honest Kitta. Its the same tests I would do on my A.m.c. colonies but the values are different

Mostly they revolve around different wing vein indices, hair and body colour, hair length, etc

 

[Finman]

Mostly they revolve around different wing vein indices, hair and body colour, hair length, etc

And then numerous hybrids in several generations., ants and uncles.
.

 

[B+.]

And then numerous hybrids in several generations., ants and uncles.
.

Ahh Finman. Trust you to throw a spanner in the works!
One of the charts this program produces is a correlation of the discoidal shift against the Hantel index. This shows which wings are outside the accepted range for the race. An assessment is performed on 50 workers and 50 drones (held in cages until they are mature) with the objective of forming a judgement on whether the sample was consistent with values for that race.
I would have thought that this was more to your liking since this is the standard method you would have learned and is used by biologists in various areas of entomology. It is low-tech enough to not need a genetics lab too.

 

[wightbees]

There's no chance here of getting anything close to them I would of thought. Mind the crosses here are bloody evil I know that much!

 

[For want of a better word]

Morephometric measurement is a useful tool and is used by many to attempt to evaluate the possible Apis mellifera bee species.... my own judgement is often fuzzy but negative discoidal shift gives a good clue to Apis mellifera mellifera

Carnica can be quite dark... but their sometimes aggressive behavior and swarmy trait is a giveaway.... although some years ago I did have some that were relatively calm!
Must depend on the strain of carnica you import.

At the end of the day DNA is the only real methodology that can give a true description .

Some of my New Zealand Italians are very dark!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

Must depend on the strain of carnica you import.

At the end of the day DNA is the only real methodology that can give a true description .

I do agree with you about DNA being the only 100% accurate test but I did say that this is an old method that was used prior to DNA. It is also relatively easy to perform. The idea of posting the screen shot was merely to illustrate how dark mellifera is for those who haven't seen it.
I don't know where you got them from Icanhopit but aggression is not usually a fault of A.m.c. Quite the opposite in fact. It sounds more like some sort of hybrid. Swarming is something I have heard before, although I don't usually see it in the BeeBreed stock. I suppose it is just one of those things they have improved over the decades but it can also be a consequence of the way they are kept. The population of A.m.c. colonies does expand quite rapidly in the spring so you certainly wouldn't want to keep them in single National brood boxes.

 

[B+.]

Some of my New Zealand Italians are very dark!

Not exactly Native are they then? ;-)

 

[Madge]

I'm not really an expert on A.m.m. assessment to be honest Kitta. Its the same tests I would do on my A.m.c. colonies but the values are different

Mostly they revolve around different wing vein indices, hair and body colour, hair length, etc

Morphometry has often been discussed on the Scottish forum.

From there I've learned that it is a useful tool to establish a colony's race if applied to a colony that's not been bred based on wing morphometry. If wing morphometry is used as a criterion for breeding, then you risk breeding bees for a wing pattern, rather than a race.

But, of course, you've already mentioned that DNA is the best test.

Again - nice picture.
Kitta

 

[Finman]

Not exactly Native are they then? ;-)

Are Irish natives valid native in England?

 

[For want of a better word]

Quote:
Originally Posted by icanhopit View Post
Some of my New Zealand Italians are very dark!
Not exactly Native are they then? ;-)

True
Italian .. New Zealand bees are not native..... except perhaps in the Ligurian gulf or whatever the Mediterranean geographical area is now called from whence they were originally imported from??

Just pointing out that local adaptation can change colouration over time.

Myttin da

 

[B+.]

Are Irish natives valid native in England?

It would be more of a reintroduction but the argument that they are more suited to our climate is a spurious one

 

[For want of a better word]

It would be more of a reintroduction but the argument that they are more suited to our climate is a spurious one

Shirley... that would be true for any imported type of honey bee?

Myttin da

 

[B+.]

Morphometry has often been discussed on the Scottish forum.

From there I've learned that it is a useful tool to establish a colony's race if applied to a colony that's not been bred based on wing morphometry. If wing morphometry is used as a criterion for breeding, then you risk breeding bees for a wing pattern, rather than a race.

But, of course, you've already mentioned that DNA is the best test.

Again - nice picture.
Kitta

This is true Kitta. I am already breeding from within a pure race though. I use it just to make sure.
Its a question of what is reasonable. I can do morphometric tests quite easily but there is a much greater cost to DNA testing

 

[Madge]

[Originally Posted by B+. It would be more of a reintroduction but the argument that they are more suited to our climate is a spurious one]

Shirley... that would be true for any imported type of honey bee?

Myttin da

I don't quite understand what you are saying, Icanhopit. Do you mean it is spurious to claim that any one race of bee (native or imported) is more suitable to our climate?

 

[B+.]

Shirley... that would be true for any imported type of honey bee?

Myttin da

Only if it had resided here previously....and don't call me Shirley!

When does a bee stop being considered imported? My German and Dutch Canica certainly are, but, would you consider the queens I rear from them imports too?

 

[wightbees]

When does a bee stop being considered imported? My German and Dutch Canica certainly are, but, would you consider the queens I rear from them imports too?

That's a very good point, technical they are not they are British both

 

[B+.]

I don't quite understand what you are saying, Icanhopit. Do you mean it is spurious to claim that any one race of bee (native or imported) is more suitable to our climate?

Slight confusion: I said that it was spurious to claim that mellifera was more suited to our climate than any other race (this is often cited as a reason to keep mellifera). Perhaps that was true tens of thousands of years ago but not any more. Just look at the "winter" we have had...hardly a winter at all! All we seem to get now is a few days of frost and lots of rain.