How dark is Mellifera?

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I have a colony that are very dark, no ginger hairs or yellow/orange on the abdomen, they have a distinct narrowing between the thorax and abdomen, very gentle colony thats calm on the frames that came as a swarm from a flat roof two years ago. not bad honey producers but not brilliant either.
 
Slight confusion: I said that it was spurious to claim that mellifera was more suited to our climate than any other race ...

Sorry B+. I understood what you said; I didn't understand what Icanhopit said relating to your post. Tangles in tangles!
Kitta
 
Keep bees that are suited to your area.... DNA and morphometry will not tell you that!

Finmans deepfreezer adapted imported bees would probably suffer, starve and die here in the sub tropical Celtic lands of Cornwall!
Nos da
 
O
Keep bees that are suited to your area.... DNA and morphometry will not tell you that!

Finmans deepfreezer adapted imported bees would probably suffer, starve and die here in the sub tropical Celtic lands of Cornwall!
Nos da

Yeah. Most of my bees are now native Buckfasts from Celtic Essex. They do have veins in wings. The minor part is Italian bees from Roman Sicily.
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This is from a program I use for morphometric assessment. I thought it might illustrate just how dark A.m.m. really is.

Natives round here are much lighter, at a glance they seem brown and they have a covering of ginger hairs.
 
Ach, I've done a few, I lost interest years ago to be honest when the wing morphology diverged from other criteria I wanted to breed from.

This is interesting...I started this thread just to illustrate how dark mellifera (the "dark" or "black" bee) is. I thought it would be of use to those who had heard of A.m.m. but may not have seen the difference,especially compared to the other main races. It seems to be developing into more of a discussion of morphometry in general.
The way I see it is as an extra assurance that gives me confidence over and above the assurance I get from the pedigree. Its a belt-and-braces "depth of defence" approach (if there are any military types out there who understand what that means). I wouldn't follow it slavishly because there is a little bit of judgement involved in where to place the points at the intersection of the veins. Perhaps this illustrates more than anything that we need a test that is 100% reliable at a reasonable cost. Morphometry is an older technique from an age before DNA but it is what biologists used for a long time. Do we accept the limitations or do we demand bleeding edge technology at any cost? Then, who pays for all this cost?
 
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I spent quite a lot of tome doing morphemetry which I now hear is dismissed but possibly in my view too hastily as who has the cash to do DNA tests?

Anyway back in the day I actually Discoidial numbers that were off the BIBBA charts to the left.

If I remember as I no longer have the fan it was -8 at the far left? Well on that basis I had bees which were -10 easily.

Just thought to mention it.

PH
 
I spent quite a lot of tome doing morphemetry which I now hear is dismissed but possibly in my view too hastily as who has the cash to do DNA tests?

Anyway back in the day I actually Discoidial numbers that were off the BIBBA charts to the left.

If I remember as I no longer have the fan it was -8 at the far left? Well on that basis I had bees which were -10 easily.

Just thought to mention it.

PH

From the very small number of Amm that B4 has had the DNA analyses carried out on it seems ( By using some complex statistics that involves Student T test... Multivariate analyses etc etc...) the discoidal shift being negative would indicate the bee belonging to Amm as there was a definite correlation with a high confidence level.

Using IDENTIFLY it seems that the correlation for the other sub species gets a bit fuzzy particularly as the vast majority of Aml and Amc DNA seems to represent a higher level of introgression noise between the sub species...

. There is probably a paper out there that shows correlation for pure samples of Aml and or Amc ... if such exists.

DNA techniques are changing rapidly and the cost is coming down.
I have my name down for the first pocket sequencer under £100... but I will probably not live that long!!


Nos da
 
This is interesting...I started this thread just to illustrate how dark mellifera (the "dark" or "black" bee) is. I thought it would be of use to those who had heard of A.m.m. but may not have seen the difference,especially compared to the other main races. It seems to be developing into more of a discussion of morphometry in general.

I posted to point out the illustration was misleading.
 
Slight confusion: I said that it was spurious to claim that mellifera was more suited to our climate than any other race (this is often cited as a reason to keep mellifera). Perhaps that was true tens of thousands of years ago but not any more. Just look at the "winter" we have had...hardly a winter at all! All we seem to get now is a few days of frost and lots of rain.

Good post IMO.

There is a big divergence of expectations too. The more 'natural' orientated tend to favour Amm as they point out they were here for a long time, but that is all about a bee that can survive and says nothing about its value as a kept bee with proper management input. After all we keep bees at a far higher density and surviving for far longer than would be the case if it was individual feral colonies in an unmanaged situation. The climatic situation has changed and the floral pattern and timings, especially in agriculture is very different.

We are not in the old days any more, and keeping bees has rather diverged into two camps and a bridge of opinion in between, the mainstream camp who keep them for interest and economics and just want good bees (often with little preference for race), and the conservation group who are very much for the black bee and do not want to take too much honey if indeed any.

FWIW Amm throughout its range are generally known as black bees, and its often used in a derogatory way (such as Finmans 'black devils') though it need not be so. However in some parts of their range they are also known as dark bees or brown bees. They do vary a little.

I need to pay the mortgage and so do several of my people. A bee that is a mere survivor is ok purely for conservation but the colonies tend to be smaller and the pollination input less plus less honey. Its all about what the beekeeper wants from his bees..............and that is where the real problem lies. The target will NEVER be agreed as there are so many different agendas.

Meanwhile we constantly experience Amm incursion into our stock...open mated colonies revert to black and to *relative* mediocrity (not bad, just tending towards basic local stock) in only 3 or 4 generations. If you see my pics from yesterday on twitter, these flying bees are all black, yet these colonies were established a few seasons ago with more coloured bees. The survivor drones have an advantage in open mated situations and that is one reason we are drone flooding around the mating yards. Just to try to get reliable production queens.

My main beef with Amm is not that it cannot make very good and strong colonies because it can. Not that it cannot make heather honey in quantity because it can. Its is however much more erratic in those respects and the proportion of excellent colonies is lower. Also the temperament is less predictable (one day fine the next day not, seemingly at random) and the management more intensive as the swarming is worse. There are disease susceptibility issues too that are not the subject of this thread.

BUT

They are a sound working bee in our environment, and whilst not the bee of our choice they are undoubtedly better than SOME stock from other races. There are good and bad in both home stock and imported, but, unless in a very particular climatic niche (Cornwall and other wild and windy western fringes may be an example) the idea of locally adapted needing to be close to home is rather a myth. Good bees from most of the UK will do perfectly well in most of the UK, and you can actually extend that much further afield, much of Europe north of the Alps or Pyrenees actually. Strangely enough the old native range of Amm.

We bring bees bred in Herefordshire up here, bred there and now no longer anything other than the local stock from that area, and in Perthshire they perform no differently in any way to our own locally raised stock. You would never know the difference.
 
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I nursed 20 years black bees. No one knows how pure they were. No one bred black bees. They just existed and mated with all races what you tried to breed. They were everywhere.

Crossing Black bee x Caucasian were not very tolerant to diseases like nosema and EFB.

What were the colours? Dark brown to ash dark. What is typical was round abdomen. Other races have sharp tip of abdomen.
 
Excellent post (#34) ITLD.
I do wish our local zealots would read it. For the record, in Ireland's "wet and windy fringe" buckfast bees do very well. All along the western seaboard from Cork/Kerry to Donegall there are thriving colonies of these bees.
In South west Cork the members of four beekeeping associations support the ever increasing popularity of Buckfast bees. In Kerry there is an association devoted to them and it operates from the south of the county up to the Shannon. Large areas of Claire now have Buckfast as the bee of choice, the same is true of counties Galway and Mayo. Sligo and Leitrim are of course very special places for Buckfast bees and one of my own favourite places....Donegall is well populated and well served with Buckfast.
Many who keep Buckfasts do not advertise the fact and if accurate numbers were known by the AMM supporters they would be "surprised".
The reasons are simple, some become intolerant of the propaganda forced upon them. Others try Buckfasts and then see the advantages and then it's another "Buckfast Imker"!
 
Nice thought B+. I heard this morning that the Irish AMM Club failed to attract anything like the number of attendees it had hoped for; to it's recent conference in Athlone. I had noticed that photos of the event were taken from a judicious angle. ;)
 

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