How are vapers getting on this spring?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Does vaping so often not affect the queen? I remember asking about oxalic trickling back when I first started bee keeping, and some reckoned that a queen that lived through more than one application could be affected.

Trickling does affect the queen, yes. but not so vaping.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Does vaping so often not affect the queen? I remember asking about oxalic trickling back when I first started bee keeping, and some reckoned that a queen that lived through more than one application could be affected.

It's because applying oxalic in syrup necessitates the bees ingesting the acid and it's supposed to mess up the excretory system (though I know Finman disagrees)
With sublimation the bees don't ingest the oxalic which just "burns" the mites.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My main answer to both posings of the same question is dead pupae partly uncapped, with visible mites, white deposits on the top of brood cells and abundant DWV.

Seems to be indicative of more than just a failing of one batch of vaping looks to me as though the problem started way before then.

Well hold on; there is autumn treatment and winter treatment in most people's books. @Erichalfbee is saying mid-September was "too late" for her [autumn treatment] in her opinion.

I think Erica has just been the victim of the mediocre winter survival rate we've seen around here with some people experiencing 100% losses. I think we're all to keen on blaming varroa for everything nowadays.
Mid to late September has always been the time for treatment around here - hasn't seemed to have had an adverse effect on the bees thus far. People should never depend on the 'winter' treatment as the save all but as a mopup after the autumn treatment to give the bees a good head start come spring.

 

[Erichalfbee]

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I think Erica has just been the victim of the mediocre winter survival rate we've seen around here with some people experiencing 100% losses. I think we're all to keen on blaming varroa for everything nowadays.
Mid to late September has always been the time for treatment around here -

That would certainly explain why even though all hives dropped lots of mites two survived.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Seems to be indicative of more than just a failing of one batch of vaping looks to me as though the problem started way before then.



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Yes its the autumn one I have a ? over


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[mjt68]

I think Erica has just been the victim of the mediocre winter survival rate we've seen around here with some people experiencing 100% losses. I think we're all to keen on blaming varroa for everything nowadays.
Mid to late September has always been the time for treatment around here - hasn't seemed to have had an adverse effect on the bees thus far. People should never depend on the 'winter' treatment as the save all but as a mopup after the autumn treatment to give the bees a good head start come spring.

I think jbm is on the money. Any problem seems to get blamed on Varroa or disease rather than bad bees, beekeeping errors, bad luck, bad weather, genetics...

To me, the important thing is to have a strategy in place: what will you do if you see a sudden increase in mite drop, what treatments are you going to apply when, what is your reasoning etc. Just applying random treatments at random intervals in a semi-panic isn't necessarily the best. This isn't directed at anyone in particular! Those without sin and all that!

Remember that unless you're doing OA every week, the presence of any brood at all will dramatically reduce the effectiveness of any OA treatment. With our recent warm winters and nicely insulated hives, I think an annual brood break around New Year is something which only exists in books.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I think jbm is on the money. Any problem seems to get blamed on Varroa or disease rather than bad bees, beekeeping errors, bad luck, bad weather, genetics...

Yes I'll cop to that. I hope it's not varroa, actually because that would mean I don't understand it

 

[Eyeman]

We know that sublimation of OA in the absence of brood removes 90-95% of mites but x3 sublimation at 5 day intervals in the presence of brood removes ???.
Lets guess at 70% of mites are removed. If you sublimated in September and there was 2000 mites then 600 mites remain going into winter. A mild winter and no brood break then 6 months later in March you've got lots of mites.
If your going to just rely on sublimation then when brood is present it looks like its going to need repeating several times before autumn / winter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

lets guess at 90% shall we - sounds a nicer guess to me - can't base a theory on a guess

 

[mjt68]

lets guess at 90% shall we - sounds a nicer guess to me - can't base a theory on a guess

Experiments have been done, but I don't have them to hand (tomorrow?). Even 90% is a chunk less than the ~97% you get without brood.

 

[Eyeman]

90% in a controlled experiment then more like 60% in the real world. We all know that just because someone says it should do such and such .......

 

[Hivemaker.]

Are people not checking for the percentage of infestation before, and then again shortly after treatment?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Are people not checking for the percentage of infestation before, and then again shortly after treatment?

I'll admit I never roll bees, and that's probably a major weakness in how I treat.

On a separate issue, as per the 70/90/97% discussion above, I do think there is a case to be made for (sealed?) brood sacrifice as part of all this. I admit, 3x5 when I more or less KNOW there is brood in the hive does make me queasy. It's clearly a great method and deserves a bit of science. I did actually buy Api-Bioxal today so I'm in deep.

 

[fatshark]

Remember that vaporised OA remains 'active' for many days after delivery - so 3x5 day treatments continue to kill mites between treatments - see the data from Radetzki. Probably active for at least 7 days ... about as long as it'll take to clean the caramelised sugar out of your vaporiser after using Api-Bioxal in it

 

[Hivemaker.]

Although long, an interesting thread on large scale use of oxalic vapor and the results.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...body-Using-the-vmvaporizer-to-treat-for-mites

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Although long, an interesting thread on large scale use of oxalic vapor and the results.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...body-Using-the-vmvaporizer-to-treat-for-mites

Post 161 "For one that has not treated for over 19 years now, see this to be something to try. My bee bill keeps getting bigger and bigger every year. Somewhere over $100K in bees to get started this year." Blinking heck: caveat non-treaters!

 

[mbc]

Remember that vaporised OA remains 'active' for many days after delivery - so 3x5 day treatments continue to kill mites between treatments - see the data from Radetzki. Probably active for at least 7 days ... about as long as it'll take to clean the caramelised sugar out of your vaporiser after using Api-Bioxal in it

I dont think this is true, certainly in the humidity we experience in West Wales, I'm sure the effectiveness of the acid is fleeting. I know people experience mite drop for several days, but aren't those mites phoretic at the time of vaping and just take a while to die?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I dont think this is true, certainly in the humidity we experience in West Wales, I'm sure the effectiveness of the acid is fleeting. I know people experience mite drop for several days, but aren't those mites phoretic at the time of vaping and just take a while to die?

I checked my drops post vaping on a daily basis. I had to. It was the only way to count mites. The drops were highest on the second day but continued till I vaped again. The scenario was repeated with the next vaping though numbers were a little lower. As for humidity....would the bees not maintain homeostasis in the hive irrespective of the conditions outside?

 

[mbc]

I checked my drops post vaping on a daily basis. I had to. It was the only way to count mites. The drops were highest on the second day but continued till I vaped again. The scenario was repeated with the next vaping though numbers were a little lower. As for humidity....would the bees not maintain homeostasis in the hive irrespective of the conditions outside?

Yes, but those mites dropping later might have all been phoretic at the time of vaping and just take time for the oxalic to take effect and kill them. Now a mite roll between vapes might reveal what going on.
As to the bees maintaining homeostasis, yes, within the nest or cluster, but ambient humidity determines how wet the woodwork and general atmosphere is. Dry, newly condensed oxalic acid is very hydroscopic, it sucks in available moisture.

 

[misterbee82]

Are there any less invasive ways to treat the hive for varoa other than chemical treatments? For example any highly effective natural remedies?