What to do with an over wintered super

[Parsonage Bees]

Ive seen these on youtube used by Canadian beekeeper with snow on the ground... (he was having difficulties)

I must have watched hours of Youtube videos by bee farmers like Mr Steppler (?@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog) on a frigid Canadian prairie and have come to realize very little of it applies to how I keep bees in my cozy temperate garden. Let's hope he doesn't get his yards flooded out again. He had a very unlucky year last year.

I've done some stupid stuff with my bees after seeing ideas from bee farmers.

 

[Swarm]

Oh, I think he bounced back from that little set back.

 

[Bodiam Bees]

Hello All,

In a similar vein, I'd be interested in the opinion when faced with the following scenario in one of my hives. First inspection was yesterday; the mercury hit 15-16C and it wasn't blowing a hooley or hosing it down for the first time this year.

• 14x12 on bottom - only 2-3 frames available (1/2 ish with eggs + brood). The rest are relatively full of stores.
• National brood box on top, 7 frames (stopped down with PIR). 2 frames with eggs and brood (inc. drone, frustratingly), the rest full of honey / syrup. Some stores here look fresh, paper-white capping, some old.
• HMQ found in top box, duly moved her down below and installed QX.

Now, it strikes me that we have very little space for expansion. By the time the brood hatches in the top box, it'll by nigh on time to super up anyway, if we get a warm stretch (!). If we get a cold spring, perhaps wait for the brood to hatch and remove this box for a couple of weeks? Regardless, it feels like removing some of the stores in the 14x12 and replacing with foundation is the first move?

 

[Erichalfbee]

So you’ve put the queen down where she has no room?
Go back and give her four empty drawn frames
Your super will be a mix of honey and syrup if you fed in autumn.
Why have you got a shallow on top of the 14x12?

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you haven’t any drawn frames foundation would work ( one sheet each side of the brood nest) if there is a nectar income.

 

[Bodiam Bees]

So you’ve put the queen down where she has no room?
Go back and give her four empty drawn frames
Your super will be a mix of honey and syrup if you fed in autumn.
Why have you got a shallow on top of the 14x12?

I see what you mean, daft move. I’ve got some foundation so will substitute some of the stores as suggested.
The shallow issue came about from a half fill come the end of August so left it on for them. Did similar on another hive with a standard super but I’m beginning to think that the early spring management of the extra tier is all a bit of a pain. Thanks for sage advice.

 

[plain_hunt]

I see what you mean, daft move. I’ve got some foundation so will substitute some of the stores as suggested.
The shallow issue came about from a half fill come the end of August so left it on for them. Did similar on another hive with a standard super but I’m beginning to think that the early spring management of the extra tier is all a bit of a pain. Thanks for sage advice.

I nadir mine, put the super under the brood box over winter, and only rarely has the Q laid in it. (And yes, I know it’s said 14x12s don’t need a super of stores, but sometimes they do, and all my supers are empty now). She usually stays in the warmer, top, box. I’m also on 14x12s. I swap them over and put the QE on when it warms up in spring.
I’d also be wondering why there is so much drone brood in there if there isn’t much worker brood. Is the Q now a DLQ?

 

[Hattie]

Hello All,

I‘ve been reading these posts with interest as I‘m also in a quandary with overwintered Supers; history: my fist colony (a couple of years ago) going into winter were so prolific and busy with Himalayan Balsam that I left them their own Super and last Spring removed it and then subsequently split the colony. This winter, the same - so two colonies both with overwintered Supers. As these Supers are essentially their own, they have been exposed to a range of Varoa treatments (OA and Apivar strips).

Last year it was no problem - I removed the (contaminated) Super (albeit a little messily). This year, in the hope of avoiding juggling said Supers, I thought I might experiment with brood and a half and yesterday‘s quick inspection seems to reinforce that theory as there is capped brood in the half box and I’m reluctant to interfere (not least because of tearing through drone brood spanning the upper and lower chambers). An additional challenge is the castellations of the half boxes.

I guess my questions are:

- From a safety point of view, is a contaminated Super (which then becomes a brood box) any different to a treated brood box? (i.e once the strips are removed and two weeks have passed, is it safe to add a honey super).

- is it a really stupid idea to try to add spacers and remove the castellated metal at this point of the proceedings?

Apologies if these questions are ridiculous but hopefully they may help others too… Sadly I know I’ve probably made a rod for my own back!!!

 

[ericbeaumont]

came about from a half fill come the end of August so left it on for them

overwintered a part filled super above the brood box

Putting a super above the BB is akin to sleeping in a cathedral: hard to keep warm. Nadir the super and the nest will empty it late in the year, wrap the stores around itself in the top box, and winter there under a low ceiling.

I nadir mine, put the super under the brood box over winter, and only rarely has the Q laid in it ... She usually stays in the warmer, top, box

Like this.

 

[rossbyjove]

Same here, not sure what to do.
Over wintered nadired super with about four frames of honey untouched.
Have about six frames of honey in the brood box.
Four frames with brood on.
Took out a plastic frame that they don't like, may try painting beeswax on it and try again with it.
What do i do with this unused honey. Can't eat it as it has been treated.
Would it be worth extracting, storing and then feeding back to them at a later date ?
Any advbice gratefully appreciated.

 

[ericbeaumont]

is a contaminated Super (which then becomes a brood box) any different to a treated brood box?

No, they're both just boxes. Don't get hung up on roles defined by books.

is it a really stupid idea to try to add spacers and remove the castellated metal

Spacers are a fiddly old-school frame-spacing solution, and more plastic the world doesn't need. Castellations are fine, but I found they ripped nitrile gloves and the frames swing about. When I was at your stage I worked them down from 11 to 9 slots and was getting 4 & half lbs on many of the frames; I thought I'd found the answer!

At the same time I also had Hoffmans, but then discovered Manleys. One year the SBI came round on a routine check and said with good humour I don't think you know what your'e doing, Eric. She was quite right, so after a ponder, I junked the castellations and Hoffmans, went over to Manleys entirely and have been happy ever since.

I thought I might experiment with brood and a half

Don't bother. That combo is a tentative attempt to respond to the need for more brood space, but frame management is limited (you can move frames between boxes only one way) and the extra space will not be enough for a good queen.

Another negative is that B+half is the work of two brood boxes but the benefit of only 1+half, so go double brood and be done with it. By comparison, many of mine are on three broods and a couple of supers by late May, and it's that extra space for both laying and storing that reduces swarming.

if these questions are ridiculous

No, not at all; they show that you're thinking through decisions and deciding your own course, which is to be applauded.

 

[Swarm]

Same here, not sure what to do.
Over wintered nadired super with about four frames of honey untouched.
Have about six frames of honey in the brood box.
Four frames with brood on.
Took out a plastic frame that they don't like, may try painting beeswax on it and try again with it.
What do i do with this unused honey. Can't eat it as it has been treated.
Would it be worth extracting, storing and then feeding back to them at a later date ?
Any advbice gratefully appreciated.

If you have a spare freezer you could store them. This too can be a faff, not everyone has space in the freezer and how many nucs would you need in order to share it out.
Scratch the cappings off and soak them in a container of water and use a garden hose on light spray to clean them out.

 

[ericbeaumont]

extracting, storing and then feeding back

Yes, but it may be solid ivy or may ferment in storage.

If it is ivy, you could keep it for feeding splits or nucs, or as winter feed at the end of the year. If extracted, Hivemaker's thymol recipe (post 44) will prevent fermentation.

 

[Hattie]

No, they're both just boxes. Don't get hung up on roles defined by books.


Spacers are a fiddly old-school frame-spacing solution, and more plastic the world doesn't need. Castellations are fine, but I found they ripped nitrile gloves and the frames swing about. When I was at your stage I worked them down from 11 to 9 slots and was getting 4 & half lbs on many of the frames; I thought I'd found the answer!

At the same time I also had Hoffmans, but then discovered Manleys. One year the SBI came round on a routine check and said with good humour I don't think you know what your'e doing, Eric. She was quite right, so after a ponder, I junked the castellations and Hoffmans, went over to Manleys entirely and have been happy ever since.


Don't bother. That combo is a tentative attempt to respond to the need for more brood space, but frame management is limited (you can move frames between boxes only one way) and the extra space will not be enough for a good queen.

Another negative is that B+half is the work of two brood boxes but the benefit of only 1+half, so go double brood and be done with it. By comparison, many of mine are on three broods and a couple of supers by late May, and it's that extra space for both laying and storing that reduces swarming.


No, not at all; they show that you're thinking through decisions and deciding your own course, which is to be applauded.

Thank you so much for your advice and support; it’s a great help - sometimes there are so many thoughts in my head - and so much information fuelling them - that it becomes mind boggling and even the simplest solutions get overlooked

 

[rossbyjove]

If you have a spare freezer you could store them. This too can be a faff, not everyone has space in the freezer and how many nucs would you need in order to share it out.
Scratch the cappings off and soak them in a container of water and use a garden hose on light spray to clean them out.

I have two deep freezes.
Frames won't fit DOH !
Might have to try the hosing down.
Cheers.

 

[rossbyjove]

Yes, but it may be solid ivy or may ferment in storage.

If it is ivy, you could keep it for feeding splits or nucs, or as winter feed at the end of the year. If extracted, Hivemaker's thymol recipe (post 44) will prevent fermentation.

I have a load of Thymol crystals, used it in the stored syrup and it works very well.
May well borrow the clubs extractor and get some practice in, never used one before.

 

[E&MBees]

I have a full brood box of set ivy honey thanks to one proflic colony. No chance of extracting it, each cell is like a little bullet. I’m hoping it will soak out and so I can reuse the drawn frames.

 

[Bodiam Bees]

I nadir mine, put the super under the brood box over winter, and only rarely has the Q laid in it. (And yes, I know it’s said 14x12s don’t need a super of stores, but sometimes they do, and all my supers are empty now). She usually stays in the warmer, top, box. I’m also on 14x12s. I swap them over and put the QE on when it warms up in spring.
I’d also be wondering why there is so much drone brood in there if there isn’t much worker brood. Is the Q now a DLQ?

Nadiring would certainly have made life more straight forward. I'll have plenty to feed back / nadir this Autumn with the surplus stores and syrup. From others, I like the bungalow vs cathedral analogy!
The drone brood is a small proportion, to be clear. I just don't like shutting them in.

 

[RJC]

But if nadiring avoid the rookie error (which I didn't after 15 years beekeeping!) of using drone brood foundation in your nadir super. Two mine were, and these hives are very full, and as a result I had an awful lot of drone brood in their supers. I don't usually practice drone brood removal as part of IPM, but on this occasion I did, and it was interesting to see the difference in the two colonies (which both had the same treatments). One had, as a guestimate about 3-4 varroa per frame of forked drone and the other none at all. The hives are set next to each other.