Home Made Improved Warre Hive Type

[drstitson]

it's like a one way miller feeder with car wash feature.

 

[The Apprentices]

it's like a one way miller feeder with car wash feature.

Heh, rose the queen in her royce.

IF it works it won't involve drizzling the potions all over the bald brood, creating hive stresses, the bees can be treated away from the brood area.

 

[The Apprentices]

I seem to be blind here. I can't quite work out where the bees go in the washarama setup. I can work out the closeable holes, and I recognise red cones, but I struggling to see the path they are to take.

Can you explain it (in very small words) please?

Certainly.

The girls enter the device through the two 10.00mm long slots either side of the central bar on the top cover.

Immediately below these slots are two huge galleries with curved wire floors that run the entire length of the box and lead down to the openings in the portals on either side.

Just inside these 22.00mm dia portals are a series of individual very soft brushes that are all interlinked with a wick which draws the treatment onto the said brushes.

When a bee passes underneath these she is coated with a tiny amount of treatment on top and on both sides, sort of like licking the back of your hand leaving it moist but not soaking wet.

When the bees pass through the cones they meet the rest of the colony then carry the treatment onto other waiting bees who then get to cleaning each other.

It is this cleaning habit that I am aiming to get them used to and any energy which is spent is replaced by the energy added in the treatment, it could also help build better communal habits into the colony if done on a regular basis.

When no treatment is being adminstered the box can be used as a two way zone as Doc mentioned or as a clearer when the two side switches are left open or closed.

The main objective in the behavioural process is for the bees to get more chances to recognise each others guests taking a free ride and throw them off, if this could be acheived we would gain trained as well as cleaner bees.

Also related to the mites and cleaning is an idea which I will slot the minuites of in here instead of starting a new thread is.

One other subject that has been touched upon in passing conversations with others is the contamination zone for varroa effecting cross contamination of apiaries which are closer together than flying distance, where other bees visit other colonies carrying their blood lusty free riders.

Like the foot and mouth scenario, if a cordon of flying distance plus 1 mile could be established as an experiment then the varroa might be thus controlled, a tall order I know but bees are no less important than beef or dairy cattle and this tiny insect contributes so much more to the food chain than many of the general public realises.

Until now this has been largely unfunded and ignored and only monotored because the cheaper imports which are entering the mind set is disguising the urgency of the matter.

The chemical issue is only one part of the bees plight and if we are entering a colder decade as normally happens then we need to look deeper into the bees plight.

In a recent MSM story, the spraying times for crops was mentioned, where a network between farmers and local beekeepers could be established to protect the gathering colonies by preventing them from being sprayed, the bees could be kept away from the area until the greatest dangers were over, not that difficult to achieve if true reciprocation was administered by all, and it need'nt cost a penny, just a phone call away the night before.

There is so much each individual could do if we simply commnicated more on a local level.

 

[Nose Ma]

I see, thanks for that.

There are significant practical issues with isolating hives, especially as we don’t know all of the little non-beebase hives (feral or “domesticated”) out there. I would guess that only somewhere quite isolated (say that island they tested smallpox on) could be used. I seem to recall there is no varroa on the Isle of Man, for example.

I am also unclear on how it moves from hive to hive. For example, my one hive is about a mile from the nearest other I know of. If I imported, or managed to obtain, a totally varroa free colony, how would the little bleeders get in there? Is it bees from the other hives about a mile away coming to say “hello”? Are drones worse offenders than workers, do they come sniffing round for a bit of queen-related action (if this is the case could it be a further selection pressure on varroa to go for drone cells?)? Do they drop off in the field and attach to unexpecting workers? Is there another vector (wasps, bumbles...?)? I can see how they transfer through drifting in an apiary, but a reasonably isolated hive puzzles me.

Despite that, the inescapable fact is that they very much do invade isolated hives.

I saw your other posting about oiled floors, which was also very interesting.

I’m interested to see how this works – both from a varroa-hygene point of view, and if the bees are willing to co-operate with going through the little krypton factor course you’ve designed. It’s all good stuff, so I wish you all the best with it.

 

[drstitson]

For some reason i thought of this thread when i saw this. is it any good to you, Apprentices?

 

[The Apprentices]

I see, thanks for that.

There are significant practical issues with isolating hives, especially as we don’t know all of the little non-beebase hives (feral or “domesticated”) out there. I would guess that only somewhere quite isolated (say that island they tested smallpox on) could be used. I seem to recall there is no varroa on the Isle of Man, for example.

I am also unclear on how it moves from hive to hive. For example, my one hive is about a mile from the nearest other I know of. If I imported, or managed to obtain, a totally varroa free colony, how would the little bleeders get in there? Is it bees from the other hives about a mile away coming to say “hello”? Are drones worse offenders than workers, do they come sniffing round for a bit of queen-related action (if this is the case could it be a further selection pressure on varroa to go for drone cells?)? Do they drop off in the field and attach to unexpecting workers? Is there another vector (wasps, bumbles...?)? I can see how they transfer through drifting in an apiary, but a reasonably isolated hive puzzles me.

Despite that, the inescapable fact is that they very much do invade isolated hives.

I saw your other posting about oiled floors, which was also very interesting.

I’m interested to see how this works – both from a varroa-hygene point of view, and if the bees are willing to co-operate with going through the little krypton factor course you’ve designed. It’s all good stuff, so I wish you all the best with it.

The drone issue and books say they do visit other in flight time apiaries during mating flights and several sometimes get involved where many times the normal foraging distances are involved.

The isolation scenario could be done if say a few neighbours came together for the said trial, its down to what is best for the bees and ultimately us if the need arose.

The oil bath floor has been tested and an idea a local beekeeper thought of before they were first seen, its is tried and tested and works perfecly and at a fraction of the cost of expensive chemicals and fancy sticky floors.

On that floor I showed the dead varroa there were 20 times more captured varroa as versus the dry floor where they can simply walk away.

The varroa shower I have adapted is mearly a modified Canadian clearer so is a standardisation of what has already been before, which works really well and very quickly with less stresses upon the bees gathering, entering and passing through, the volumetric area of the Canadian is many times greater than the Porter setup.

The Canadian also has a much deeper gathering area underneath so the bees are able to congregate and organise before moving on.

On the issue of a varroaless colony, a freind and I visited a one request another hive which turned out to be queenless and had been since its insertion, no brood at all were present and no evidence cocoon staining was visible, no varrosis either so we were looking at was a clean hive by all intention purpouse.

The nearest other colony was 8 miles away 16 mile radius.

At our last winter prep meeting one of the members mention alecture he attended that The host a welsh guy? Working for the beevital group, where tests in Italy showed an infection time from clean to infected in around 3 days, I don't have any other information other than talking to him myself.

 

[drstitson]

max watkins of Vita (europe) speaking at the Varroa conference in Worcester in feb?

 

[The Apprentices]

max watkins of Vita (europe) speaking at the Varroa conference in Worcester in feb?

Cheers Doc, a great lecture I was led to beleive.

On the wood front, I do collect section and season most of my project timbers, like Holly, Laburnum and Elder for toolmaking and handles, my own shoe making tools and handles are all home made.

 

[The Apprentices]

I see, thanks for that.

There are significant practical issues with isolating hives, especially as we don’t know all of the little non-beebase hives (feral or “domesticated”) out there. I would guess that only somewhere quite isolated (say that island they tested smallpox on) could be used. I seem to recall there is no varroa on the Isle of Man, for example.

I am also unclear on how it moves from hive to hive. For example, my one hive is about a mile from the nearest other I know of. If I imported, or managed to obtain, a totally varroa free colony, how would the little bleeders get in there? Is it bees from the other hives about a mile away coming to say “hello”? Are drones worse offenders than workers, do they come sniffing round for a bit of queen-related action (if this is the case could it be a further selection pressure on varroa to go for drone cells?)? Do they drop off in the field and attach to unexpecting workers? Is there another vector (wasps, bumbles...?)? I can see how they transfer through drifting in an apiary, but a reasonably isolated hive puzzles me.

Despite that, the inescapable fact is that they very much do invade isolated hives.

I saw your other posting about oiled floors, which was also very interesting.

I’m interested to see how this works – both from a varroa-hygene point of view, and if the bees are willing to co-operate with going through the little krypton factor course you’ve designed. It’s all good stuff, so I wish you all the best with it.

Just going over what you said again and what comes to mind is the sheer lack of knowledge in many aspects of bee life and the lack of funding into the problems, while wars rage around the globe and the astronomical amounts being spent on destruction, 600 million already in Libya alone to date, just half of one percent of this figure would bee enough to getting a result.

We beekeepers and related spend millions every week in the hope that the six numbers we mark up will match the ticket and spend a further small fortune treating the results, rather than funding a possible solution to the cause, there's logic for you.

If the bees plight is continually ignored its down to a series of vested intetests and a lack of insight to the longevity of our whole upon the profits being made, a hedged against the security that bees can give us as nature always does 24-7 for free at room temprature.

Why we are not interested in the free aspect and strive for the alternative kind of pelf that is creating the main problem is beyond logic.

Take away greed, ego, empathy and ignorance and what are we left with.

 

[The Apprentices]

Latest apidea with mesh floor and oil drawer and wasted side frames, just like their larger cousins, mini Adam type feeders and roofs coming soon.

 

[The Apprentices]

Another batch of custom Warremovable frames primed and ready for next years increase on 4.9 foundation starter strips from a freinds really old rolling mill.

 

[The Apprentices]

Another batch of custom Warremovable frames primed and ready for next years increase on 4.9 foundation starter strips from a freinds really old rolling mill.

Showing the differences between my national brood frame and one of my own Warre frames, not much difference in sizes.

 

[Tom Bick]

Are you leaving yourself the option to fit foundation in the frames?

 

[Dishmop]

Showing the differences between my national brood frame and one of my own Warre frames, not much difference in sizes.

You made your Warre boxes deeper to start with or after you decided to use frames?

I converted some national frames but then worked out that it was quicker all round to build some national hives, into which I now have to transfer the colonies form the Warres.

 

[The Apprentices]

Are you leaving yourself the option to fit foundation in the frames?

Yes my mod Varre frames have the usual groove right around the sides, however I have fitted the top bar type hanging triangle and the same at the bottom and found that in the combing up time there is very little time difference without using any foundation and believe this is the way to go.

Both frame configurations shown work very well, the self comb method is an experiment ongoing with myself, but it certainly produces smaller cell sizes, and depending on time versus weather/food etc, we have found that the bees build a myriad of different cell sizes to suit this model and mood it seems, the varroa count will be recoded and shared with the whole once a full season or two has passed, Cushman and other TBH owners have covered this very scenario with great results so far, even the big guns are now starting to advertise similar facts and systems.

 

[The Apprentices]

You made your Warre boxes deeper to start with or after you decided to use frames?

I converted some national frames but then worked out that it was quicker all round to build some national hives, into which I now have to transfer the colonies form the Warres.

My Warre boxes are the same depth as the monks were and without frames inside the volumetric area is almost the same as a national brood, the view of Warre from outside is quite deceiving.

I have both studdied and built hoth a national and a Warre system and the latter is far more complicated infact more than it needs to be really.

The Warre construction using my setup of doing dovetails is much quicker and simpler with minimal equipment, the warre frame is also much simpler and needs no foundation or fiddly nailing dismantling etc.

The ledge for resting the frame ends upon is all done the traditional way over the top of a standard saw bench, two passes and they are cut out and the waste that eminates I now use as a square section in a round hole drilled at the bottom with the Warre modded frame, waste nothing and the shavings from the projects go into the quilt so no expensive kingspan or in-absorbant polystyrene.

I am also experimenting with another Warre based design hive that has a dual carriageway type outer double bee space passage ways outside of the frame ends, the perspex outer wall in the observation hive are prooving quite promissing.
The bees use these walkways quite readily to quickly gain access to supers above instead of having to travel through the main hive, the bees can also circulate the unwanted warm damp moist air up and out through the vented quilt rather than having to try and force the air that wants to rise downwards and out of the bottom of a hermatically sealed modern system, resulting in reduced energy used and supplies eaten in doing so.

All part and parcel of the Warre methology of self sufficiency and self regulation.

 

[oliver90owner]

So we have 'metamorphosed' from the Warre principle to a nadired OSB?

 

[The Apprentices]

So we have 'metamorphosed' from the Warre principle to a nadired OSB?

I suppose that sort of right, the extra motorway if you want to call it that, is an extra 9.00mm birch ply board which slides into two slots in seconds, both frame to inner wall and double wall have a standard bee gap, the hive internals stay the same 300 x 300 x 210 and from the outside it's 36.00mm wider across the door.

I love making things me

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes my mod Varre frames have the usual groove right around the sides, however I have fitted the top bar type hanging triangle and the same at the bottom and found that in the combing up time there is very little time difference without using any foundation and believe this is the way to go.

Both frame configurations shown work very well, the self comb method is an experiment ongoing with myself, but it certainly produces smaller cell sizes, and depending on time versus weather/food etc, we have found that the bees build a myriad of different cell sizes to suit this model and mood it seems, the varroa count will be recoded and shared with the whole once a full season or two has passed, Cushman and other TBH owners have covered this very scenario with great results so far, even the big guns are now starting to advertise similar facts and systems.

Don’t know how long you have been foundation less on the frames but you may be advised to fit one or two wires to the frames.

The problem is and you may have noticed this the bees normally don’t attach the comb to the sidebars and the bottom bars.

They will perhaps attach the first third to the side bars but after this apart from an occasional bit of brace there will be a gap and the comb vulnerable and will have to be handled similar if you just had a top bar.

If you are in a big flow and the bees are then pushed for room they then tend to fill in this gap.

Obviously with your take on the ware hive swarming is not a problem as you will let the bees swarm but if you are interested in swarm control then this gap next to the side bars the bees love to put QC’s there.

 

[The Apprentices]

Don’t know how long you have been foundation less on the frames but you may be advised to fit one or two wires to the frames.

The problem is and you may have noticed this the bees normally don’t attach the comb to the sidebars and the bottom bars.

They will perhaps attach the first third to the side bars but after this apart from an occasional bit of brace there will be a gap and the comb vulnerable and will have to be handled similar if you just had a top bar.

If you are in a big flow and the bees are then pushed for room they then tend to fill in this gap.

Obviously with your take on the ware hive swarming is not a problem as you will let the bees swarm but if you are interested in swarm control then this gap next to the side bars the bees love to put QC’s there.

Hi Tom

I have tried wires and very strong thread similar to the feral colony frames I made for the swarm box, and made a stand which sits on a lazy shiela to spin them around just in case.

The little beggers do love hiding QC's wherever especially where there is any hanging caverns in the frames.

I'm going to try the Horsley board set up for swarm control this season, other people I have spoken to say it works pretty well, so fingers crossed I can split a few off this year and foncentrate on my own queens instead of Heinz 57 swarms.

I have made all that gear last year so I might as well give it all a try, what doesn't work will convert into something else.

Cheers for the pointers.