Holier than thou!

[B3njy]

I am happy to murder wasps in revenge for the murder of my bees!

Feast on the dead by all means, if you fly up and knock one of my bees out of the air you will be stomped by a deftly planted wellington boot.

I have killed at least 300 wasps this year and not a tear was shed. A jihad on their kin.

 

[EKBee]

"I don't judge beekeepers for exploiting bees"

Excuse me, but I certainly don't feel I exploit the wee beasties.In fact I could make the case that as I've spent several thousands on looking after their housing needs,general welfare & propagation of their species for an almost non existent return that I am the one being exploited by them

 

[B+.]

A jihad on their kin.

Nature is cruel and we all play a part in it but "to hunt an animal to extinction is illogical" (Spock quote).
I think this is all being blown up out of proportion...there must be something strange that happens to beekeepers when they can't play with their bees!

 

[Karol]

Your post is probably justified to some extent but I think it's rightful place is in the pesticides and politics section.
Over to you admin

Its rightful place is to be sanitised in some seedy little hole on the forum?

Hmmmm!

This isn't about me. I'm not upset and I won't withdraw my support of the forum because I think it's a wonderful educational vehicle that I get just as much out of as I try to contribute to.

This post Gilberdyke John is much bigger than me. It's about the duty of care that bee keepers have towards their bees and all I'm doing is raising a mirror to the issue so that beeks are given the opportunity to reflect on what this is really about and whether they step up to the plate in terms of their responsibilities as shepherds and guardians of a valuable natural asset.

Let me put a little more perspective on this. If there was a group of vandals that went around and burned 5 to 10% of all hives around the country every beekeeper in the land would be up in arms and there would be a mass conflagration.

So, what's the difference between that and the equivalent in unnecessarily lost hives to wasps because of what is as I've said a simple matter of vanity for those holier than thou beeks? (And to be clear on this I am not criticising those beekeepers who innocently don't have the knowledge and are looking for help or those who on an informed basis choose a different mode of husbandry based on the principles of wasp selected hive fitness).

Let me put a little more perspective on this if I may. I makes me cringe listening to vain beekeepers demand an unassailable thresh hold of scientific evidence from 'commercial quarters' whilst they happily expound 'wasp control' systems that not only stress their bees unnecessarily but also vastly inflate the risk of their hives being overwhelmed by wasps. If that's not bad enough, they proceed to give harmful advice to other beeks genuinely seeking the best outcome for their own hives and they do so without a scintilla of scientific evidence of their own but because it's not 'commercial' in nature it must be OK!

I won't apologise for raising the mirror for beeks to look into. Reflection is good because it establishes what needs to be learned and as Tremyfro says, it's an educational thing. So, I'm not here ranting Mellifera Crofter (which I think is a great avatar by the way), I'm here to help not just in terms of holding up the mirror but in providing free advice and time to those of you who would like that help.

 

[Karol]

<snip>

Most of us love you.

Dusty

And I love you all back but this isn't about me.

If I have been provoked then it's not on a personal level. It's because I have concerns about the unnecessary harm that's being done to bees and the way in which that harm is being propagated. I'm quite a patient chap but it does pain me to see bees suffer unnecessarily for the sake of vanity. It's a difficult line to tread because I could equally be accused of being holier than thou as well so I'm glad that I can bow to your greater holiness!

 

[thenovice]

Hey Karol,

If it can be any consolation, your posts have been a revelation in wasp biology. As a result I have been trying my best to keep my colonies strong and entrances small in the hope not to have to resort to drastic measures. Have not needed any traps yet and ended up with 2 happy species. if anything, you steered me away from any commercial solutions...

now, where is my flamethrower?

 

[B+.]

...there must be something strange that happens to beekeepers when they can't play with their bees!

Now I understand.....too much caffeine! https://youtu.be/i9nE6yBEOf0

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There's only a handful (or less) of them Karol - the vast majority on here, I would suggest, have valued your insightful posts into wasp behaviour over the years (at least those of us who have bothered to follow your posts and read them !).

To be honest, I can't remember a single post of yours that has any hint of your commercial interests.

So don't tar us all with the same brush - the few that been chipping at your heels in the last few days really don't get it - and probably never will. Don't waste you breath on them ... there'll be a few more like me along shortly I would imagine.

Well said Phil, I can sympathise with Karol on this one as 'that' post was uncalled for and particularly nasty, but as my father would say - there's a clown in every circus

I have to say that I have learned a lot about a creature that I would otherwise take all steps to destroy from our conversations. I don't have any of your products but that may well change. As you say, that is my decision and your information and advice was freely given. I see no harm in anything you have done on here. In fact, I applaud your restraint.

don't have a waspbane, and thanks to Karol and his insights into wasp behaviour I will probably now never get one!! what he has done though is taught me a lot which has helped me no end when I get the usual summertime calls to help with 'swarms' of wasps which may be a nuisance to the caller in future

I don't have a clue what you're on about. To me your post does sound like a rant without a subject. Is there one?

Yes, there is a subject and his main aim has, since he joined the forum, been to wind up other users, start a fight and walk away his input seems to be constant trolling and sh!t stirring dotted with a smattering of knowledge to keep us guessing

Your post is probably justified to some extent but I think it's rightful place is in the pesticides and politics section.
Over to you admin

Why?it's not about pesticides or politics - it's a justified response to a piece of blatant trolling

Thank you HM. Is that it? If thats all there was, I would say that beebot did more to advertise waspbane than Karol has done. Isn't it just a difference of opinion?

Nope, his 'farewell post' was a direct attack on Karol's integrity followed by disparaging remarks aimed at other forum users. Seen this pattern develop with a number of forum users that seem to come and go but happen to pass the baton on to a new one. Isn't technology a fine thing - have we got a very clever and computer savvy troll lurking around somewhere?

 

[oliver90owner]

I am certainly not aware of you selling anything on the forum. HM does, but I don't see anyone complaining

This is the sort of thing that riles me. HM most certainly does not set out to advertise anything. His references are from others; he advertises his product no more than Karol. Both advertise absolutely zilch, as far as I am aware.

I would recommend something that catches a minimum of wasps over drawing the whole wasp cohort into the danger zone of the hive. I find that early founded colonies are easily up to the job of either repelling , or killing, the relatively few wasps that try to enter my hives (given the benefit of a reasonably sized entrance before any concerted attack).

I have lost two colonies to wasps this year. The idiot that stole them and then returned them, after plod belatedly got on the job, was the singular cause. The idiot moved them a short distance after the theft. He then moved them back after approx two weeks. Anyone with any beekeeping sense would know how that would affect a nucleus colony with a virgin queen. Both colonies were queenright before the theft as was a third, smaller nuc sized colony, made up at the same time. That smaller colony has thrived, while those two colonies , stolen and returned, have succumbed. Admittedly I did not go to any great lengths to aid them to expand (quarantined as far as I was concerned, as the idiot may have introduced any disease vector to them). The overwhelming wasp invasion occured while we were away and no other colonies in the apiary have been troubled. So my system works. Even when the wasps have devoured two colonies in the close vicinity.

As far as infringement of copyright is concerned, good. If it was someone who was making possibly hundreds of traps, to indiscriminately trap wasps, all the better in my view. As far as the wasp haters go, I don't sympathise; wasps have a place in the ecology and would do a better job than pesticide sprays, even if not as effective for several reasons.

I hope Karol keeps up his informative posts on how not to attract wasps to beekeepers' weak hives. Eventually the message may get through.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well said that man!

 

[dexter's shed]

As far as infringement of copyright is concerned, good. If it was someone who was making possibly hundreds of traps,

that would be me then, no I was not looking at going into mass production, simply making something as I do in my shed out of pop bottles, having a woodland with wasps and hornets, I wanted to cover myself next year, adding these away from my hives,
karol pointed out the infringement and I removed the youtube video that I had made in case others wanted to try making them, I was not expecting to be a millionaire this time next year, obviously a few members had seen it before I had time to remove it

The vast majority of bee keepers as you quite rightly point out are decent, respectful soles who appreciate the sacrifice that their bees make and respect, love and tend their bees accordingly and it's a delight and pleasure to help and work with them.

I would have said all beeks are like that, it's only my opinion here, but I'd say it's not the help you offer that they take offence too, but the comments that homemade traps don't work, obviously the waspbane was a homemade trap once, and was then put into production.

 

[kazmcc]

You could of read it, you just need to know where to look.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=506833&postcount=21

Oh my word! I'm not surprised you are offended Karol. That was upsetting for me to read. I completely missed this. Winter has come early it seems

 

[For want of a better word]

What do they taste like?
My 15 year old son cooked Kangaroo steak last night and it was delicious.
sorry...went off at a tangent there!

Bit of a mixture of Passenger pigeon and Dodo I believe!



Yeghes da

 

[Erichalfbee]

As a novice I made jam jar traps and once caught a blue tit on a glue trap that must have died a terrible death.
Karol, you have brought so much wasp light to the uninitiated. I have learned so much as have lots of others here.

simply making something as I do in my shed out of pop bottles, having a woodland with wasps and hornets, I wanted to cover myself next year, adding these away from my hives,

No need as you know now they don't work

 

[Karol]

<snip> I would have said all beeks are like that, it's only my opinion here, but I'd say it's not the help you offer that they take offence too, but the comments that homemade traps don't work,

I think you'll find that I have specifically used the term 'low efficiency' traps - not homemade! There are a plethora of commercial low efficiency traps on the market (that incidentally breach the trades descriptions act by claiming that once a wasp goes in they can never get out) that have not only been responsible for stress and harm to bees but have also been responsible for increased sting rates in people with all of the medical complications associated with wasp stings.

obviously the waspbane was a homemade trap once, and was then put into production.

But not so obvious was the fact that I flung the full weight of a pharmaceutical manufacturing and R&D company behind it to validate through extensive testing that is was safe and efficient before ever making any claims for the product let alone commercializing it. You see, there are some that treat risk to human health (and honey bee - read non target beneficial species) very seriously. I've witnessed too many tragedies not to.

 

[dexter's shed]

I think you'll find that I have specifically used the term 'low efficiency' traps - not homemade! There are a plethora of commercial low efficiency traps on the market (that incidentally breach the trades descriptions act by claiming that once a wasp goes in they can never get out) that have not only been responsible for stress and harm to bees but have also been responsible for increased sting rates in people with all of the medical complications associated with wasp stings.



But not so obvious was the fact that I flung the full weight of a pharmaceutical manufacturing and R&D company behind it to validate through extensive testing that is was safe and efficient before ever making any claims for the product let alone commercializing it. You see, there are some that treat risk to human health (and honey bee - read non target beneficial species) very seriously. I've witnessed too many tragedies not to.

fair do's, point taken, end off

 

[Itchy]

Karol sells Integrated Wasp Management. His advice on placement etc is invaluable to me as a bee keeper....as long as it's coupled with sound bee keeping practices....reduced/modified entrances, no spillage, strong colonies etc, etc. As a professional pest controller, I've been on his course and it's fascinating...knowledge gleaned from a unique source, although we do disagree on some small details re wasp behaviour. I've sold his traps to customers with sweet feeding wasp issues, used them myself etc. I've no doubt that I could make something almost as efficient myself, but for the money involved they are supremely efficient, and last all year. Once you get your head round the fact that wasps swarm feed (on vulnerable hives) you will understand why efficiency is the most desirable feature.

 

[Finman]

Just to be perfectly clear, my comments are expressly aimed at the minority Pargyle.

The vast majority of bee keepers as you quite rightly point out are decent, respectful soles who appreciate the sacrifice that their bees make and respect, love and tend their bees accordingly and it's a delight and pleasure to help and work with them.

I cannot stop crying.

Work with them? And they try to ban me all the time... Bees do not love me, even if I love them.
I give to them every year a new queen and they just try to sting me!

.

 

[pargyle]

I cannot stop crying.

.

Voit jättää ....

 

[Finman]

Voit jättää ....

That means "butters leaves" or " you may let it be"

Voi voi ... Means "oh dear"

Hän voi .... He can, he may