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burch 

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can anyone tell me the difference in size between a National and British standard hive. I have just bought some second hand national hives and they seem to be slightly smaller than the british standard one that i have
 

Poly Hive 

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Off the top of my head they should be the same.

Possibly home made hives and so hence the difference.

I once bought four WBC's from the same source and not one lift fitted another..

PH
 

burch 

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the one i did have is a nat deep brood and has 11 frames. the ones i have brought are approx 15-20mm smaller so not sure what they are
 

burch 

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i have now found out that the new second hand hives i have bought are of an early national the internal measurements are the same as a modified national with the exception of top bar which is about an inch shorter. so i am now wondering if the hive i have already is a commercial as i understand theese to be bigger any ideas
 

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Hi Burch,here are the hive sizes for Commercial and National:

Commercial Hive Dimensions and statistics
External dimension – 18 5/16” square
Brood body depth – 10 ½”
Super depth – 6 3/8”
The brood area is 3000 sq. ins.
No. of worker cells 70,500
Bottom Bee Space

Frames sizes.
Top Bars – 17 ¼” long
Bottom bars – 16” long
Deep side bars – 10” long
Shallow side bars – 6” long

Foundation sizes
Deep – 15 7/16” x 9 ½”
Shallow – 15 7/16” x 5 ½”

=====================
National Hive Dimensions and statistics

External dimension - 18 1/8" square
Brood body depth - 8 7/8"
14” x 12” brood body depth - 12 ½"
Super depth - 5 7/8"
The brood area is 2200 sq. ins.
No. of worker cells 50,000
Bottom Bee Space

Frames sizes
Top Bars – 17” long
Bottom bars – 14” long
Deep side bars – 8 ½” long
14” x12” side bars – 12” long
Shallow side bars – 5 ½” long

Foundation sizes
Deep – 13 7/16” x 8”
14 x 12” – 13 7/16” x 11 ½”
Shallow – 13 7/16” x 5”
 

burch 

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ok i have just measured some of the frames and super the hives i have bought are smith hives. my next question is there an easy way to transfer the existing brood that i have into one of theese hives
 

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I think the difference between smith and Nats are the top bar length.

From memory the smith has handles of around 19mm while the Nat is 38mm so taking off 19mm from each end would work if you wanted to get the frames straight in rather than use a cut board to move them into the smiths on foundation.

Please check before getting out your jigsaw as I have not checked any of this.
 

burch 

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i believe your measurements to be correct as i have checked this out and found the same just wasnt sure that if it would be that easy or not as my b/s frames have a colony working them at the moment not sure how they would take to me cutting it away with them on it.
 

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Any chance you could change the top bars if not able to get a jigsaw to them.
 

burch 

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what seriously jigsaw/change the top bar while it is full of bees etc. just do it 1 frame at a time after brushing the bees off and then place it in the smith hive is it really that easy????
 

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Well the only other way I know of is to get them up onto Smiths frames.
 

ian 

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Hi Birch

First job is to find and secure the queen, then simply attack your frame lugs with a decent set of long handled pruners.

It does work, but it's a bit a of a butcher's job:cheers2:

Regards Ian
 

Poly Hive 

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Right hang on here.

I have skimmed through this and what you want to do is to move from National to Smith aye?

Very simple. Cut approx half an inch off each lug. Sorted.

And yes I have done it many times and the best saw is a "junior hacksaw"

PSST...the Smith is a far better hive than the National though of course I am Scottish and possibly a wee bit prejudiced. But honest. All the benefits of the Langstroth with of course minus the size which is why the Glen was invented.. but that's another story.

PH
 

burch 

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i take it you mean gardening prunners. If i try getting them up into the smith brood box is it just a case of placing the crown board over the existing brood box and placing the new brood box over the top with its roof. will this do the trick.
 

Poly Hive 

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Ignore the butcher and his shears... sheesh... wee hack saw works fine.

PH
 

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I think the difference between smith and Nats are the top bar length.
My first hive which was second hand was a langstroth rebated inside to smith size. Confused yes well I was too as a brand new beekeeper. Anyway the smith hive took short lugged national frames. After the bees dies out I burned the hive which was ancient and had seen better days. I bought two shiny new hives from hivemaker for my locally sourced Northern Irish bred black bees.
 

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Was your LANG/NAT/SMITH top or bottom bee space or both :laughing-smiley-004
 

burch 

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i have been and checked my hive today and tried cutting the ends of the frames without joy. Happy to say that all of the frames have been drawn and the bees have started to fill them with stores. I have decided to place a crown board on the existing hive and have the bees move up to the smith hive. I think this will be easier in the long run.
 

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i have been and checked my hive today and tried cutting the ends of the frames without joy. Happy to say that all of the frames have been drawn and the bees have started to fill them with stores. I have decided to place a crown board on the existing hive and have the bees move up to the smith hive. I think this will be easier in the long run.
Is the correct answer :cheers2:
 

burch 

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ok have been today was unable to find the queen but loads of brood and eggs. i have placed a crown board on top and then the smaller broad box followed by the roof. i did notice the bees coming back with heavily laiden in pollen tho will leave for a few days and then check on them again.
 

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