Hive making

[stumorph]

I am making a national hive from dave cushmans plans my question is will I have to leave bee space between the frame sides and the brood/super box wall or is it just the bottom space that is important

 

[MartinL]

All around.

Any space smaller will be propolised, any larger they'll fill with wax.
"Simples"

 

[rayz_x]

I haven't made a hive yet but plan to. I spent a lot of time studying the plans but still didn't quite get the way it went together. I got the cheapest pine box from M****more and assembled that and it all made sense. A lot of the measurements are critical and if you want yours to be compatible with all other National parts it is important to be exact.
Yes there is a bee space at either end of the frame, as well as below. There also seems about half a space above the frames - but maybe that is just a bit of 'tolerance'.
Don't forget you will need enough space above the side runners to fit metal or plastic runners - if these are too high the frames will sit above the top edge of the box. M*****ore don't put in runners and the wood gets very sticky when you want to slide frames along. Metal are the only runners that will take a blowlamp to sterilise - but I guess they can't be put in caustic.
Good luck.
Ray

 

[charlievictorbravo]

On the subject of bee-space, you will no doubt be aware that the "standard" design for National hives is based on BOTTOM BEE SPACE. My trainer on the first course I did said that he preferred top bee space because beeks tended to kill less bees when re-assembling a hive after an inspection. This seemed to make sense to me, especially after I'd done some work in the apiary, so I made my 14x12 hives with TOP BEE-SPACE.
I recall that Cushman makes reference to top bee-space on his drawings but even so I found I needed lots of little pencil sketches of frames and boxes to get the runners in the right place.
Colin

 

[oliver90owner]

Well done CVB.

I changed from standard deeps to 14 x 12 and top bee space a long time ago. Clearly not so compatible with the locals but overall a far better way to go IMO. The National is (or was) available in top bee space format at a premium from th8rne. I dare to say they like to sell lots of complicated crown boards and flippy floppy queen excluders so they maximise profit rather than simplify beekeeping.

When I convert a bottom bee space brood to top bee space 14 x 12 it only needs the runners setting in place with a frame or two in place, leaving the bottom bars just a mm shy of the bottom of the box. Simple once all the dimensions are fixed.

RAB

 

[stumorph]

Thanks for all your help now i understand a lot more

 

[kermit]

There is no difference in flat packed hives for top or bottom bee space. Just think about where you put the front and back panels. Move them down a bit when you secure them for bottom bee space.

The price difference is only if you get them made up (but then why are you on this bit of the site???...

 

[oliver90owner]

There is no difference in flat packed hives for top or bottom bee space.

Oh yes there is.

 

[rolande]

I am making a national hive from dave cushmans plans my question is will I have to leave bee space between the frame sides and the brood/super box wall or is it just the bottom space that is important

I'd imagine that this issue is adequately dealt with by the plans themselves.

By following the measurements in your plans everything should work out correct, unless of course the plans are wrong.

 

[davnig]

There is no difference in flat packed hives for top or bottom bee space. Just think about where you put the front and back panels. Move them down a bit when you secure them for bottom bee space.

The price difference is only if you get them made up (but then why are you on this bit of the site???...

There is no difference in flat packed hives for top or bottom bee space.

Oh yes there is.

he's right and I'll add why (oliver likes you to think - I think the forum is for info) - from bottom to top - move the inner side down but then requires a router or a chisel on the inner top rebate and some packing on the bottom inner (if you want to maintain beespace all round)

 

[drstitson]

"There also seems about half a space above the frames"

not if all dimensions are correct.

 

[itma]

I haven't made a hive yet but plan to. I spent a lot of time studying the plans but still didn't quite get the way it went together. I got the cheapest pine box from M****more and assembled that and it all made sense. A lot of the measurements are critical and if you want yours to be compatible with all other National parts it is important to be exact.
Yes there is a bee space at either end of the frame, as well as below. There also seems about half a space above the frames - but maybe that is just a bit of 'tolerance'.
Don't forget you will need enough space above the side runners to fit metal or plastic runners - if these are too high the frames will sit above the top edge of the box. M*****ore don't put in runners and the wood gets very sticky when you want to slide frames along. Metal are the only runners that will take a blowlamp to sterilise - but I guess they can't be put in caustic.
Good luck.
Ray

Ummmm.

I wonder if it did "all make sense" !

Not seen a Maisie pine one, BUT Maisie's cedar one has 'lips' on the top of the side walls to act in place of rails - so the frame lugs don't sit on a flat wood ledge.
The tolerances are much tighter than leaving half a bee space above the frame top bars. (That is a recipe for prop and wax...)
Hence I'm wondering if you might have got the side panels upside down? (So the wooden rails would be downwards.
Either that or you didn't get rails that the box requires.


For bottom beespace boxes, the frame topbars should be level with the top of the box - or maybe just 1mm below to allow for a little prop.

 

[rayz_x]

Thanks itma, your advice is appreciated.
This was the first brood box I had made up and it could have been due to some inaccuracy in assembly. It probably isn't half a space but is more than it should be.

Part of the problem was that, against my instinct, I followed the instructions to put the side rails in then slid the 'walls' down after. Instinct I think was right and I have put subsequent boxes together walls first then rails after.
The sloping lips on the walls are the right way up but I don't like them. Our bees don't make much propolis but the frames still stick when we try to slide them. I am going to shave them down and put in metal rails which should also enable me to correct the space.
I guess what did 'make sense' was the way the parts all went together as I had only seen occupied boxes before.
Ray

 

[itma]

Well Ray, actually I've preferred to build Thorns boxes the Maisie way!
I've fitted the metal or plastic rails first, then used the side bars to form the box, then slot in the walls and 'drift' them up and down until they are level and a topbar is level with the top edge, all along the rail. Only then do I start screwing and nailing ...

Plenty other ways to skin the cat, though!

 

[rayz_x]

Thanks, fitting the rails first makes a lot of sense. I used gorilla glue and nails which was what caused the problem - sliding the walls down squished the glue out of the bottom and made a right mess.