hive insulation

[oliver90owner]

Same happens in wooden hives.

Rather rains on his reply that polyhives are a problem in UK climate, if closed up. Only idiots leave no ventilation whatsoever, on any hive, for an extended period.

Travel screens are needed when transporting bees in hot vehicles, but that is about the limit in the UK. Given the opportunity, in the UK the bees will propolise any and (probably) all top ventilation. Demonstrated by using gauze rather than leaving a gaping hole in their ceiling, which needs guarding by the bees, at this time of the year.

The nest is maintained at around 35 degrees Celsius - we rarely exceed this temperature in the UK.

 

[simonforeman]

Have read all the thread... twice as allot to take in for a new beek like me.
So a simple question, this winter I plan to insulate my national wooden hives by putting a slab of celotex in the top of the roof and slide the solid wooden boards into the omf floors. Do I need anything else or any other ventilation? Not too bad winters around South lincs normally. And all 4 hives are still wall to wall bias so am expecting to go into winter with very strong colonies.

 

[victor meldrew]

Have read all the thread... twice as allot to take in for a new beek like me.

So a simple question, this winter I plan to insulate my national wooden hives by putting a slab of celotex in the top of the roof and slide the solid wooden boards into the omf floors. Do I need anything else or any other ventilation? Not too bad winters around South lincs normally. And all 4 hives are still wall to wall bias so am expecting to go into winter with very strong colonies.

You read the threads you takes your pick !
I’ve kept bees for over 30 years , single wall boxes . No top ventilation , even before the advent of Varroa and the open mesh floor !
I use the shiny bubble wrap type of insulation over the crown board and pop the inspection trays under the OMF.
I can honestly say my winter losses have been very few !
Don’t get bogged down with the pseudo technical arguments !
They always result in “ my dad can fight your dad “ slanging matches !
Use your own judgement on this one as our winters, even the “ bad “ ones aren’t too bad after all . [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Finman]

.

Insulation and upper entrances may remain mystery after all in UK.

I hope that in human houses knowledge is better.
.

 

[thorn]

.

Insulation and upper entrances may remain mystery after all in UK.

I hope that in human houses knowledge is better.
.

Unfortunately not.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So a simple question, this winter I plan to insulate my national wooden hives by putting a slab of celotex in the top of the roof and slide the solid wooden boards into the omf floors. Do I need anything else or any other ventilation?.

Simple answer
celotex on top of crown board
No tray. Leave omf clear

 

[user 6228]

It might be useful if they added the roof vents to their national hives, if, as is suggested, the next four summers will be like this one.

This summer I closely observed two colonies in artificial trees that lose heat less than half as much as a polyhive and a polyhive closed up to minimum entrance (but open mesh floor) all no top ventilation (BHS) . They had two sources of water, one a classic pond that colonies frequent in early spring. and the other a shallow pool with weed , more of a bog.

We did not observe any bees frequenting either of the water sources, which were both suitably hot and dank. Bees were on the outside only during a flow in the evening and then it was only a hundred or so.
All three colonies are strong.

 

[Beefriendly]

If there is a flow of nectar on why would they need water?

 

[coffindodger]

This summer I closely observed two colonies in artificial trees that lose heat less than half as much as a polyhive and a polyhive closed up to minimum entrance (but open mesh floor) all no top ventilation (BHS) . They had two sources of water, one a classic pond that colonies frequent in early spring. and the other a shallow pool with weed , more of a bog.

We did not observe any bees frequenting either of the water sources, which were both suitably hot and dank. Bees were on the outside only during a flow in the evening and then it was only a hundred or so.
All three colonies are strong.

This makes sense.
Some posters are thinking of house ventilation where warm, humid air is expelled at high level to be replaced by cooler, dryer air. A beehive is more like a room than a house. Many will have stood in a room with a radiator on one wall and a window on another and have noticed an air flow over them on the window side. Air is moving up from the radiator, across the ceiling, cooling and dropping down the unheated wall. Change room for hive and radiator for cluster.
Whilst moist air is less dense than dry air, once it meets the cool mesh floor three things will happen; some will mix, thus slightly warming incoming air, some will 'fall out' and some moisture will condense (and in doing so release heat). This area of condensation will provide water for bees.
With no insulation on the top or because there is an outlet for the warm air, this 'ceiling' area will cool and condensation be formed on the top, to fall on the bees. Once there is sufficient insulation to prevent (over) cooling at the top, any further insulation of the hive will reduce total heat loss and therefore energy loss and stress on the bees, but will not change the basic circulation within the 'box'.

 

[user 6228]

If there is a flow of nectar on why would they need water?

A very good question. The classic discussion in bee books and academic papers says water is for cooling, humidification and brood. The literature ignores the honey ripening as a means of cooling and humidification. In fact the literature ignores the fact that honey ripening takes energy

 

[Finman]

. The literature ignores the honey ripening as a means of cooling and humidification. In fact the literature ignores the fact that honey ripening takes energy

It has been very clearly said in articles about "heat control of bee hive".

And every researcher understand without saying, that when bees are busy in prossessing nectar yield, they use energy and produce heat. It is basic truths in biology.

It is another thing, does an ordinary beekeeper understand anything, what does it mean. Beekeepers put bees make all kind of kinds of things, which are not needed.

 

[user 6228]

It has been very clearly said in articles about "heat control of bee hive".

And every researcher understand without saying, that when bees are busy in prossessing nectar yield, they use energy and produce heat. It is basic truths in biology.

It is another thing, does an ordinary beekeeper understand anything, what does it mean. Beekeepers put bees make all kind of kinds of things, which are not needed.

Really? I think you are making a big leap there (about the researchers) . I have read many books and read lots of papers and strangely they almost never mention it. In fact when they are making energy calculations they treat the energy in the nectar collected as the same as the energy in the honey. I have had conversations with researchers into the energy models of colonies, and they didnt take account of it and neither did the other researchers they knew.

Only one makes a detailed statement and was in Hive and the Honey Bee in the 1946 and 1949 editions.

if it goes without saying then they are not saying it even when they should

 

[user 6228]

Thanks to Finman he made me double check ...

There are statements which say nectar is a source of water in the context of providing liquid for brood.
There are statements which say bees use their proboscis with water the same way as they do with desiccating nectar.
but none say that honey ripening cools the hive or uses energy except the one mentioned above

The phrasing seems to trace back to Lindauer

weird (to someone with basic physics )

 

[Finman]

but none say that honey ripening cools the hive or uses energy except the one mentioned above

)

I have read the system from internet. Nothing new in it.

David Cusman's page tells in inte first sentence.

The infomatiom is so old, that new researchers do not mind to repeat it.

 

[Hivemaker.]

none say that honey ripening cools the hive or uses energy except the one mentioned above

Why would they need to say it, is it not obvious that it takes/uses/requires energy.

 

[user 6228]

Why would they need to say it, is it not obvious that it takes/uses/requires energy.

In the world of academia it would need saying explicitly at least now and again but its almost total absence is remarkable, It make one wonder, do not entomologists blow on their soup to cool it down?

A little background: In the world of gas board engineers, (and physicists) anything with the prefix "therm" means energy but in the world of biologists "therm" is as in thermometer i.e. it means only temperature. It not just confined to this, a chemist and a biologist have completely opposite meanings to the word endothermy.

There are dozens of papers out there on how education confuses people with respect to temperature and energy. It appears to confuse entomologists especially

 

[Hivemaker.]

In the world of academia it would need saying explicitly at least now and again

The obvious, why?

 

[user 6228]

The obvious, why?

The review process forces detail in, unsaid assumptions are not left unwritten. The review process can quite vicious. Leaving something that is implied out would be jumped on.
So energy of vaporisation is not implied but omitted or ignored.

 

[Hivemaker.]

So energy of vaporisation is not implied but omitted or ignored.

Because it is obvious.

 

[user 6228]

Because it is obvious.

to you and me