Hi from Hampshire

[pargyle]

Hi all,
I got a lovely email from the Admin suggesting I introduce myself.
I've always been interested in beekeeping ever since I found out that my grandfather kept bees (before I was born).
Having moved to the country last year, we now have an appropriate place to keep them.
My main motivations are:

• they are super interesting organisms
• I want to promote biodiversity in our garden
• I want to improve pollination for our veggie patch and freshly planted woodland
• we love honey

I've been researching the topic on and off for the past year and am partway through a theory course.

My current thinking is 2 main hives with a capacity for up to 4 colonies, with my preference seeming to be poly Langstroths (due to the improved thermoregulation they provide the bees).
I'm sure that will trigger a debate.

As often happens on here your thread has wandered wildy off into the woods of beekeeping. I'm not going to apologise - it's one of the characteristics of this liberally moderated forum and in some ways the discussion is vaguely related to your stated hive preference and may help you in your decisions !

Everyone else will find it interesting as well ....

 

[JamezF]

As often happens on here your thread has wandered wildy off into the woods of beekeeping. I'm not going to apologise - it's one of the characteristics of this liberally moderated forum and in some ways the discussion is vaguely related to your stated hive preference and may help you in your decisions !

Mostly my fault. I did wonder if I shouldn't start another thread.

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

Mostly my fault. I did wonder if I shouldn't start another thread.

James

I’m sure the OP understands and I hope he’s found it interesting

 

[dvearn]

Yes, whenever I try to work the information out from first principles the numbers just don't tie up properly. I wonder if numbers have been rounded in multiple places during the calculations and the results posted therefore vary depending on where the rounding was actually done. I guess it's also possible that some people have assumed slightly smaller figures for the "available area of comb" than the internal dimensions of the frame because those cells overlapping the frame won't be used for brood.

At the moment though I'm struggling to see a definite benefit of the Langstroth options. The 14x12 and Jumbo seem sufficiently close that it seems to come down to whether one's preference is for long lugs (and compatibility with most other people if that matters) or top bee space, and if a single national brood is too small (as can often be the case) a standard Langstroth deep doesn't really appear to have that much more to offer.

Unless of course Langstroth boxes and frames can be obtained much more cheaply. I believe that used to be the case, and perhaps still is if one's operation is large enough to import them, but I had the impression there wasn't really that much difference any more at the small scale.

James

Hi James,
Thanks for your views.
I know this isn't an exact science, but I was swayed by the 4 trainers on my course
They have all run a variety of formats and if were starting from scratch all said they would go Langs.
Rationale (just a point of view):
National brood box isn't really big enough, so you tend to need a "brood and a half", but this means you can't swap frames between the deep and the half. This also doubles the number of boxes and frames to inspect.
A double deep on a National tends to be too much space.
Consider the required cell capacity e.g. Langstroth comes in at 99%

I'm probably going to avoid jumbo Langs, as sound like they could be fragile in hot weather.

 

[JamezF]

Rationale (just a point of view):
National brood box isn't really big enough, so you tend to need a "brood and a half", but this means you can't swap frames between the deep and the half. This also doubles the number of boxes and frames to inspect.
A double deep on a National tends to be too much space.

Very fair comments. It's good to get views from a number of trainers, too. When I did my basic training I think the other only hive that got a look-in was the WBC and no-one was encouraging that.

I agree that some people find a single National brood isn't sufficient for their colonies and "brood and a half" isn't exactly the most desirable setup. I mostly run double National brood for that reason. There are some benefits in that there's more space for brood and bees, perhaps a reduced likelihood of swarming, and very often there's no need to feed for the winter. Comb changes are also very easy because you can just whip off the bottom box early in the spring (before the bees are using it), clean the floor, put the remaining box back on top and then a box of fresh foundation on top of that, so effectively all the comb in the hive is cycled out every two years. Perhaps the most irritating things are the number of frames required, and inspecting them, though many people don't bother to inspect the bottom box every time. Unless you're checking for disease and really want to go through every frame, if you can see all looks well from the top box then it's usually ok not to bother with the bottom one. Some manipulations may perhaps be slightly easier if you have a double brood, too. Because they can store so much food I do sometimes find myself removing stores in the Spring to give more space for the queen to lay as well. That's both a positive and a negative in that having brood frames of stores can be useful when making up nucs. It isn't uncommon to hear that you can check for queen cells in a double brood by splitting the two boxes and checking the bottom bars of the frames in the top box because that's where they'll be. That may be mostly true, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

I know some here like 14x12 whilst others don't. I have no experience of that format so can't really comment further, though I was flirting with the idea earlier this year. Given the opinions posted when I asked, in the end I decided that for me it was a marginal, but better, decision to stay on double brood rather than switching. I may well end up using insulated dummy frames to reduce the overall brood area to something closer to a Jumbo Langstroth or 14x12 box though.

If you do go with standard Langstroth deeps, I wonder if you might end up running doubles anyhow. Again I have no experience of them, but I get the impression that it's not uncommon. It may well just come down to how you like to keep your bees in the end. I'm also aware that some people use one size of Langstroth box throughout rather than deeps and shallows. I've never looked at the details though. I'd have thought a deep full of honey would be pretty heavy to work with -- perhaps 20kg, maybe more. Whilst 20kg might not sound that much (I'll quite happily carry a 20kg sack of chicken feed under each arm after all), it's a different story when you're lifting it from a height or can't get in the best position to move it.

At the start I don't think it's the end of the world even if you do find you've made the wrong decision. It's not a gargantuan task to change if you only have two or three hives and there's usually someone looking to pick up second hand kit if you need to sell the old stuff after you've switched.

James

 

[Antipodes]

I'm also aware that some people use one size of Langstroth box throughout rather than deeps and shallows

Yes, I do, but 8 frame "ideals", not 241mm full depth. Ideals are 144mm approx. Someone will set me straight, but I thought langstroth boxes were Jumbo, 12 frame, 10 frame, 8 frame, W.S.P., ideal and shallow. There are probably more. I think Ericbeaumont listed heaps on here a couple of years ago.

 

[Erichalfbee]

There are probably more.

Yes
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/lang.html

 

[markyfive]

This might be a handy reference from this forum Feb 8 2011

If the supers have come with deep national frames does that mean the supers are in fact brood boxes IE are all the boxes the same size?

1/ yes , see t hornes or lots of beek suppliers. look at my map here

2/ you cannot use super frames in brood boxes, would cases problems

3/ yes. see this image

BB

PS Welcome to the forum

 

[BeeAdmin]

Hi all,
I got a lovely email from the Admin suggesting I introduce myself.

Hey, thanks for introducing yourself. How are you enjoying yourself so far?