Help wanted with trap out in the Oldham Area...

[Sean]

I'm hoping someone can help. We've had honeybees take up residence in the stone wall of our house. It's been about 3 days since I noticed them. Not seen a swarm, but they've definitely fully moved in. They've found two holes about a meter apart (started with one and initially I tried to block it and then quickly studied up and unblocked it) and I assume they are in a cavity behind the stone. About 10ft above the ground. I've had a crash course in honeybees and extraction processes. It looks like a relatively small colony that has not been here long. The problem we have is that it is a grade-listed building with a 100-year-old contract between neighbors, and we can't remove stones without everyone's approval. which we do not have, and even if we did have, the reality is we could likely not afford the repair work right now due to a series of unfortunate financial events (loss of income etc.)

I've checked with house insurance (not covered) and called every registered beekeeper within a 10 mile radius on the BKA website but they all have pretty much the same answer - that a cut out is the only option. I've spoken to a few people on the bee removers database and the amounts of money being discussed are simply not an option for us right now. Which leaves us between a rock and hard place (much live our new beehive!). I'm aware that leaving the honeycomb in situ is a big nono, as it will attract other bees and pests, but that's a risk I'd be willing to take under the circumstances. It really feels like there should be a charity for this kind of work. I appreciate it's highly specialized and requires surveys, equipment, and a few different skill sets, but the country is better off when these little guys are safely rehomed. I just don't have money lying around for an ad hoc excavation on the side of my house (and yes, I've learnt my lesson - there will be no holes for them to find once this ordeal is over)!

I'm growing increasingly desperate and hoping someone can help before I do something silly that is highly unlikely to work, probably involving a shop vac and a few shots of vodka (for me, not them). Any advice much appreciated.

 

[Sutty]

A "trap out" is one option (do a search on here).
There was a post in here recently re Wasps nests which suggested the vacuum over some hours, I don't know how well it would work for bees though I suspect it would take longer.
If you manage to get them out you could cover the entrance with queen excluder to stop a new swarm arriving but let other bees rob any honey stores & waxmoth destroy much of the combs.
Whereabouts are you?

 

[pargyle]

1. What's your location ?
2. Are you sure they are honeybees ?
3. If there are only two holes they are using and you are sure there are no more they are using ...
4. A cut out may not be the only option if they are honey bees and they have only been in residence a short time - Look up 'trap out' on Google. It won't remove the comb but you will remove the bees and you can then block up the holes they are using.

 

[Sean]

1. What's your location ?
2. Are you sure they are honeybees ?
3. If there are only two holes they are using and you are sure there are no more they are using ...
4. A cut out may not be the only option if they are honey bees and they have only been in residence a short time - Look up 'trap out' on Google. It won't remove the comb but you will remove the bees and you can then block up the holes they are using.

1000% sure they are honeybees. Verified by beekepers. Also, super docile about me poking around at the moment (I do love bees and big part of me wishes I could keep them!)

Yep. It was 1 hole. When I first spotted them, I had a quick google and hoped they might be scouts so sealed it to try to change their mind. Within hours they found another hole nearby. After a lot more reading, I realised it was too late to dissuade them so I removed the block and now they are using both holes (one more than the other).

I've read about trap outs and I'd be more than happy to give it a go. My only concerns are that they will become angry and we have small childrens and dogs around. It also sounds like the best way to use a trap out is in conjunction with something better for them to move to, which I'm not qualified to do, so do I just let them drive themselves mad trying to get back in? Sounds like it would be a very long and potentially dangerous euthanasia process

 

[Sean]

1. What's your location ?
2. Are you sure they are honeybees ?
3. If there are only two holes they are using and you are sure there are no more they are using ...
4. A cut out may not be the only option if they are honey bees and they have only been in residence a short time - Look up 'trap out' on Google. It won't remove the comb but you will remove the bees and you can then block up the holes they are using.

Oldham area, just outside Manchester

 

[Sutty]

1000% sure they are honeybees. Verified by beekepers. Also, super docile about me poking around at the moment (I do love bees and big part of me wishes I could keep them!)

Yep. It was 1 hole. When I first spotted them, I had a quick google and hoped they might be scouts so sealed it to try to change their mind. Within hours they found another hole nearby. After a lot more reading, I realised it was too late to dissuade them so I removed the block and now they are using both holes (one more than the other).

I've read about trap outs and I'd be more than happy to give it a go. My only concerns are that they will become angry and we have small childrens and dogs around. It also sounds like the best way to use a trap out is in conjunction with something better for them to move to, which I'm not qualified to do, so do I just let them drive themselves mad trying to get back in? Sounds like it would be a very long and potentially dangerous euthanasia process

Trap out needs the nearby hive for them to enter

 

[Sean]

Is this something I could potentially DIY (creating a cheap and alluring hive)? If successful, presumably there will be no shortage of people willing to take them off my hands.

 

[ericbeaumont]

aware that leaving the honeycomb in situ is a big nono, as it will attract other bees and pests

It is acceptable to leave it provide it is entombed effectively.

let other bees rob any honey stores

A very good way to spread disease to other colonies, feral or kept.

they will become angry and we have small childrens and dogs around.

Bees do not get angry: that is a human indulgence. A trap-out will merely oblige them to adapt their flight path, which will take 24-48hrs. Children and dogs will show interest which will give an opportunity to teach both not to fear, but to respect the bees.

just let them drive themselves mad trying to get back in?

I don't think that you have understood the trap-out method.

A box is fitted next to the nest entrance with a one-way valve in the side; from the valve a pipe is fitted into the usual entrance in the wall; all other entrance options must be sealed.

Into the box must be put either a frame of open brood from which bees can make a queen, or a queen herself. Best to use drawn comb to fill the box.

The nest bees will leave to forage as usual and have no option but to go down the pipe, exit through the valve and out of the box entrance; once they learn that the box is home, they will give up trying the old wall entrance.

The presence of a queen or brood will satisfy the returning foragers and they will not attempt to enter the one-way valve and return to the wall nest. Technically, a bee could return through the valve, but either they can't work it out, or are content in the box with the queen or emergency queen cells.

By this method flying bees are bled from the nest, which in turn is depleted of stores; as the queen will not lay without being fed, her laying and the workforce to feed her declines.

After 6-8 weeks the bulk of the nest will be in the box, and it can be closed and removed at dusk to a new location 3 miles away; that distance is necessary, because otherwise foragers' sat-nav will lead them back to the nest the next day.

As soon as the box is gone, work must be done to seal all entrances within several metres of the nest. If this is not done thoroughly, a swarm will arrive pdq next year.

The queen will not leave the nest, and any drones (unlikely to be many) will not pass through the valve, and they will die when the nest is sealed.

creating a cheap and alluring hive

A light box is better and a poly nuc box ideal. Whatever you use, it must be fixed the wall securely with a light wooden frame.

Washing machine waste pipe is good for the connecting pipe between box and wall. Buy a new one as the smell of soap will be unpopular with bees.

no shortage of people willing to take them off my hands

Maybe, but the temper and disease status is unknown and they could turn out to be a liability.

 

[Sean]

It is acceptable to leave it provide it is entombed effectively.


A very good way to spread disease to other colonies, feral or kept.


Bees do not get angry: that is a human indulgence. A trap-out will merely oblige them to adapt their flight path., which will take 24-48hrs. Children and dogs will show interest which will give an opportunity to teach both not to fear, but to respect the bees.


I don't think that you have understood the trap-out method.

A box is fitted next to the nest entrance with a one-way valve in the side; from the valve a pipe is fitted into the usual entrance in the wall; all other entrance options must be sealed.

Into the box must be put either a frame of open brood from which bees can make a queen, or a queen herself. Best to use drawn comb to fill the box.

The nest bees will leave to forage as usual and have no option but to go down the pipe, exit through the valve and out of the box entrance; once they learn that the box is home, they will give up trying the old wall entrance.

The presence of a queen or brood will satisfy the returning foragers and they will not attempt to enter the one-way valve and return to the wall nest. Technically, a bee could return through the valve, but either they can't work it out, or are content in the box with the queen, or emergency queen cells.

By this method flying bees are bled from the nest, which in turn is depleted of stores; as the queen will not lay without being fed, her laying and the workforce to feed to her declines.

After 6-8 weeks the bulk of the nest will be in the box, and it can be closed and removed at dusk to a new location 3 miles away; that distance is necessary, because otherwise foragers' sat-nav will lead them back to the nest the next day.

As soon as the box is gone, work must be done to seal all entrances within several metres of the nest. If this is not done thoroughly, a swarm will arrive pdq next year.

The queen will not leave the nest, and any drones (unlikely to be many) will not pass through the valve, and they will die when the nest is sealed.


A light box is better and a poly nuc box ideal. Whatever you use, it must be fixed the wall securely with a light wooden frame.

Washing machine waste pipe is good for the connecting pipe between box and wall. Buy a new one as the smell of soap will be unpopular with bees.


Maybe, but the temper and disease status is unknown and they could turn out to be a liability.

Thank you. This is exactly the sort of detailed response I was hoping for! So it sounds like, with a bit of research and determination, I can do this (properly) myself? I can stretch to the box you linked to, no problem, and already have unused pipe and timber. After a few minutes of googling, I’m struggling to see the UK equivalent of the mesh used in the cones in the US/Oz.

I’ll keep reading, but is time of the essence? ie if another month passes and the weather turns, presumably they will hunker down and this won’t be as effective until it warms up again?

Who knows, this could be the start of my beekeeping hobby!

 

[Sean]

It is acceptable to leave it provide it is entombed effectively.


A very good way to spread disease to other colonies, feral or kept.


Bees do not get angry: that is a human indulgence. A trap-out will merely oblige them to adapt their flight path, which will take 24-48hrs. Children and dogs will show interest which will give an opportunity to teach both not to fear, but to respect the bees.


I don't think that you have understood the trap-out method.

A box is fitted next to the nest entrance with a one-way valve in the side; from the valve a pipe is fitted into the usual entrance in the wall; all other entrance options must be sealed.

Into the box must be put either a frame of open brood from which bees can make a queen, or a queen herself. Best to use drawn comb to fill the box.

The nest bees will leave to forage as usual and have no option but to go down the pipe, exit through the valve and out of the box entrance; once they learn that the box is home, they will give up trying the old wall entrance.

The presence of a queen or brood will satisfy the returning foragers and they will not attempt to enter the one-way valve and return to the wall nest. Technically, a bee could return through the valve, but either they can't work it out, or are content in the box with the queen or emergency queen cells.

By this method flying bees are bled from the nest, which in turn is depleted of stores; as the queen will not lay without being fed, her laying and the workforce to feed her declines.

After 6-8 weeks the bulk of the nest will be in the box, and it can be closed and removed at dusk to a new location 3 miles away; that distance is necessary, because otherwise foragers' sat-nav will lead them back to the nest the next day.

As soon as the box is gone, work must be done to seal all entrances within several metres of the nest. If this is not done thoroughly, a swarm will arrive pdq next year.

The queen will not leave the nest, and any drones (unlikely to be many) will not pass through the valve, and they will die when the nest is sealed.


A light box is better and a poly nuc box ideal. Whatever you use, it must be fixed the wall securely with a light wooden frame.

Washing machine waste pipe is good for the connecting pipe between box and wall. Buy a new one as the smell of soap will be unpopular with bees.


Maybe, but the temper and disease status is unknown and they could turn out to be a liability.

Just saw the other link to the one way valves. That looks much more straightforward that what I was seeing on YouTube!

 

[ericbeaumont]

struggling to see the UK equivalent of the mesh

No mesh needed, just the red cone in the link.

You will need a beekeeper, five frames of drawn comb, a queen or frame of open brood, and lateral thinking to resolve any issues that arise.

The beekeeper you lure will probably loan a nuc box for the job.

 

[ericbeaumont]

seeing on YouTube

Oh, Lordy! Stay away from there!

 

[ericbeaumont]

is time of the essence?

You have time if you set up the box next week.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What a wonderful solution you guys have come up with...and maybe the start of a new hobby for @Sean McGrath . Do keep us updated.

 

[pargyle]

Thank you. This is exactly the sort of detailed response I was hoping for! So it sounds like, with a bit of research and determination, I can do this (properly) myself? I can stretch to the box you linked to, no problem, and already have unused pipe and timber. After a few minutes of googling, I’m struggling to see the UK equivalent of the mesh used in the cones in the US/Oz.

I’ll keep reading, but is time of the essence? ie if another month passes and the weather turns, presumably they will hunker down and this won’t be as effective until it warms up again?

Who knows, this could be the start of my beekeeping hobby!

Yes ... a lot of beekeeping starts with a swarm 'adopting' the location - a degree of self reliance and DIY is an important asset in beekeeping and it sounds as though you have that in spades - and if you have no fear of the bees - you are well on your way.

Be careful .. it's a great hobby but can be very addictive and all-consuming - but there's the advantage of producing a few jars of your own (and probably the best in the world - or at least it will taste like it !) honey.

Let us know how you get on .. from Eric's excellent post you are well on your way - as he says, avoid most You Tube videos - particularly red neck USA ones ! You have a great opportunity to document your journey though with photos and videos.

Good luck, there's always someone around on here to help if you need it and there's a few members who are based in your neck of the woods if you need to offload the bees (although I reckon you are already hooked and want to keep them ) It's a slippery slope ....


Philip

 

[Sean]

Thanks for all the support so far. I was tentative about posting as so many forums are pretty hostile to the inexperienced.

You’ve mentioned brood or a queen. Is the addition of a queen likely to increase success or will the open brood be enough? Just trying to not introduce complexity if it’s not required

 

[pargyle]

As you don't currently keep bees you are unlikely to have the option of:

"Into the box must be put either a frame of open brood from which bees can make a queen, or a queen herself. Best to use drawn comb to fill the box."

So this is going to be important:

"You will need a beekeeper, five frames of drawn comb, a queen or frame of open brood, and lateral thinking to resolve any issues that arise".

And that's a big ask of any beekeeper ... you might want to get in touch with the local beekeepers association:

https://www.oldhambeekeepers.uk/

Their website is not very up to date but there are some contact details on there.

Explain the situation and see if anyone is prepared to help and donate a few old drawn frames - there is a value in drawn comb and even more value in a drawn frame with brood - a bought in queen at least £35 so you may want to either join the association or offer a donation in respect of their assistance (with a bit of luck some generous soul may take pity on you and recognise that you are trying to do the right thing).

There's always the possibility that a forum member in your vicinity may come forward as well, I've changed the title of your thread to give you a bit of wider audience.

 

[Sean]

I’ll speak to them tomorrow. If it increases my chances, I’m happy to take a road trip if there are any members further afield that could help!

 

[Sean]

This isn’t going too well. Seems like I’m trying to get ahold of gold dust!

 

[pargyle]

This isn’t going too well. Seems like I’m trying to get ahold of gold dust!

It's a busy time for beekeepers - both hobbyist, semi-professional and bee farmers. It's been an exceptional month - after a slow spring the forage and weather have come together and our bees are filling the supers with honey like there's no tomorrow. If everyone is like me .. filling most of my spare hours keeping an eye on the bees so they have enough space that they won't swarm, scratching around for more supers and frames to put on the hives, making up more frames (even though I thought I would have enough). Keeping the picking going and freezing of my garden produce, cutting grass and pulling up weeds and working for a living. Association officials who are volunteers who do all this and take on the added responsibilities and tasks involved in keeping their associations going (a pretty thankless job at times). It's never ending ....

Be patient - we beekeepers are a fairly generous lot. Something will come along ...