Hefting and winter stores

[Murox]

You may well be right.
But then again, stores which are 3 frames away, sideways, may as well not exist in a cold snap, if there is brood that the cluster can't move away from. And the stores on the frame they are on sound minimal, and only in the corners, so not necessarily really accessible either. The centre of a wooden national brood box can be a very cold place.
Bees naturally work upwards through their food, not sideways, right? It's one factor that puts me off trying a horizontal national hive.
So I would say isolation starvation is possible, though certainly other factors are highly likely to be involved and maybe starvation wasn't the main issue at all.

You make an interesting point, though I think given the variation of weather/temperature bees will move about more than just upward. I do think the depth of a frame matters so they can access stores more easily for longer without needing to move the entire cluster side ways. I agree there is/will be more than one reason why a colony fails when there are stores available - as was said earlier a healthy colony doesn't get "isolated" form its stores. After all a frame is just one small cross section of a broadly spherical mass which constantly moves and responds to its needs and environment.

 

[mbc]

It was defiantly isolation starvation. Typical heads in cells and no sign of varroa poo in the cells. The bees were very clustered around a small ball of brood on the centre 2 frames and isolated from any food by about 3" of empty cells.

Doesn't this sing a story of population crash rather than starvation?

 

[Boston Bees]

Stewart says starvation in this colony that looks very similar in terms of stores distribution to Newbeeneil's

Who knows though

 

[Tony Slater]

It was defiantly isolation starvation. Typical heads in cells and no sign of varroa poo in the cells. The bees were very clustered around a small ball of brood on the centre 2 frames and isolated from any food by about 3" of empty cells.

It’s a myth that bees with heads in cells is a sign of starvation. They might have starved, or they might not, but heads in that position is not a sign of starvation. Bees in cells head first is a part of the natural structure of a cluster. It is also the position taken by heater bees.

 

[Newbeeneil]

It’s a myth that bees with heads in cells is a sign of starvation. They might have starved, or they might not, but heads in that position is not a sign of starvation. Bees in cells head first is a part of the natural structure of a cluster. It is also the position taken by heater bees.

That's a new one on me Tony. Thanks.

 

[Boston Bees]

That's a new one on me Tony. Thanks.

To be fair, it's a myth that is repeated by a lot of quite respected beekeepers (Stewart does it in his video above, for example!).

To be exact, heads in cells IS what bees do when they are starving, to glean the final bits of nectar available to them. But it's also what they do when in cluster. So it's not definitive of starvation.

 

[Tony Slater]

To be fair, it's a myth that is repeated by a lot of quite respected beekeepers (Stewart does it in his video above, for example!).

To be exact, heads in cells IS what bees do when they are starving, to glean the final bits of nectar available to them. But it's also what they do when in cluster. So it's not definitive of starvation.

I’m not sure that is what they do when they are starving. How long would it take for a bee to find out there is no honey in a cell? I think winter brood can be a menace because it traps the cluster over and around the brood. The cluster is less able to move towards the stores. However, the weather has been relatively mild for the time of year and my bees have only clustered intermittently. Certainly not enough to be cut off from stores. Providing there are stores somewhere in the hive, winter losses are far more likely to be due to disease rather than starvation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I’m not sure that is what they do when they are starving

I've witnessed it a few times when it was definitely starvation - one, a nuc I had prepared for a new queen at an out apiary which only had enough food for 24 hours max, then Something happened and I couldn't get to it with the feeder and food I had prepared for it, then others were powerfully strong colonies which, although they should have had plenty of food, the weather changed and there was no forage. In each case when I got to them any food that was there at the last inspection had completely gone, I had dead bees piled up on the floor and hundreds of bees dead, with their heads stuck in cells.
Pretty certain they didn't die from the cold.

 

[Tony Slater]

I've witnessed it a few times when it was definitely starvation - one, a nuc I had prepared for a new queen at an out apiary which only had enough food for 24 hours max, then Something happened and I couldn't get to it with the feeder and food I had prepared for it, then others were powerfully strong colonies which, although they should have had plenty of food, the weather changed and there was no forage. In each case when I got to them any food that was there at the last inspection had completely gone, I had dead bees piled up on the floor and hundreds of bees dead, with their heads stuck in cells.
Pretty certain they didn't die from the cold.

When bees cluster in the cold, some bees enter empty cells head first, and other bees wedge themselves into the spaces between the frames. That is normal cluster architecture particularly around the compact edge of the cluster. If the cluster dies - for any reason - the bees that were clinging to each other between the frames no longer have support and fall to the floor. The bees that are in the cells just remain there stuck. So when you examine a hive that’s died you see a pile of bees on the floor and others still stuck head first in cells. These are often around a small patch of brood which the dwindling cluster was desperate to keep warm.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

When bees cluster in the cold, some bees enter empty cells head first, and other bees wedge themselves into the spaces between the frames. That is normal cluster architecture particularly around the compact edge of the cluster. If the cluster dies - for any reason - the bees that were clinging to each other between the frames no longer have support and fall to the floor. The bees that are in the cells just remain there stuck. So when you examine a hive that’s died you see a pile of bees on the floor and others still stuck head first in cells. These are often around a small patch of brood which the dwindling cluster was desperate to keep warm.

You've obviously decided on your mantra and are not interested in listening to what others are saying
I said it was not cold in the instance of the nuc in fact I was introducing a new queen and in the other instances the colony was not dwindling, in fact, quite the opposite, they were expanding rapidly and although I said there was a change in the weather it was not cold and the bees were definitely not clustering

 

[Tony Slater]

You've obviously decided on your mantra and are not interested in listening to what others are saying
I said it was not cold in the instance of the nuc in fact I was introducing a new queen and in the other instances the colony was not dwindling, in fact, quite the opposite, they were expanding rapidly and although I said there was a change in the weather it was not cold and the bees were definitely not clustering

Ok, fair enough. I hear you.