Has anyone had worse overwintering by switching to poly?

[Finman]

Mobus thought the winter brooding in timber hives was partially driven by moisture,

Winter brooding is in genes. If our hives have brood in early winter, 100% out of those colonies die. We can buy such queens from south.

Our hives may be very moist in spring but the colony does not start brooding. It needs drinking water from soil to make food juice to larvae. And they need pollen stores in side the hive. If hives cannot get water outside, all larvae will die.

 

[Fusion_power]

They can keep up with the proud defence of outmoded gear however long they wish, and just hand the advantages over to those who make progress.

Several of the early beekeepers took hard-held stands on issues of hive size and type only to be proven wrong over the long term. Heddon and Danzenbaker come to mind. I can see enough solid science behind poly to believe that weak colonies benefit. There is still a question in my mind whether strong colonies wintering in poly suffer from lack of water. This may be as simple as providing a water source inside the hive for winter. So with due regard, there is no "hand the advantages over" in this discussion. This is how beekeepers learn. More important, discussing real world experience is beneficial for other beekeepers to learn from. I put several years of study into determining why Langstroth hives are not to my liking and switched to Square Dadant as a result. I would just as quickly adopt poly hives if I determined there is enough benefit to justify the change.

 

[SDM]

Why do you think large colonies in poly suffer from a lack of water ? Apoloeif you've said so elsewhere.

 

[Into the lions den]

Why do you think large colonies in poly suffer from a lack of water ? Apoloeif you've said so elsewhere.

Never.

 

[SDM]

Lol, you are preaching to the choir here, but fusion power's winters are very different to ours. Im intrigued to here the logic behind his presumption.

 

[For want of a better word]

Lol, you are preaching to the choir here, but fusion power's winters are very different to ours. Im intrigued to here the logic behind his presumption.

It could be that in those latitudes all the available water is frozen... I wonder if Finnie our own little snow pixie's heaters add evaporation power to the colony as much as warmth for the bees???

Yeghes da

 

[Hivemaker.]

Why do you think large colonies in poly suffer from a lack of water ? Apoloeif you've said so elsewhere.

Post 14 and 55 go into the theory of why, seem like it is partly related to food consumption.

 

[Finman]

It could be that in those latitudes all the available water is frozen... I wonder if Finnie our own little snow pixie's heaters add evaporation power to the colony as much as warmth for the bees???

Yeghes da

Another Scientist, who has evaporation power. Idea is good, but heaters are not in hives during winter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have noticed that those in our former colonies have an obsession with supplying water drinkers for their bees.
Obviously just trying to make the facts fit their 'reasoning'

 

[SDM]

Post 14 and 55 go into the theory of why, seem like it is partly related to food consumption.

Cheers, that metabolic equation rather oversimplifies the issue. It ignores the amount of water required to consume their stores. Less used to dilute honey surely means more available for anything else, but also ignores the absorbancy of wood further reducing available moisture( or perhaps creating a store of it).
Available water is unlikely to be an issue anywhere in the UK over winter , its usually dripping down the hive 5 days out of 7. But even then the theory doesnt " hold water" for me as for the likes of Finman large winter clusters and well insulated hives are the basics of wintering survival. Even in the US that holds true. Larger winter clusters equates to higher survival and faster build-up.

 

[Finman]

.
Do why try to explain what is moving in Fusion's head?

 

[SDM]

.
Do why try to explain what is moving in Fusion's head?

It took me a while to undeestand where you were coming from. I wouldn't call it wasted time.

 

[Finman]

It took me a while to undeestand where you were coming from. I wouldn't call it wasted time.

What ever, but my hives continue over wintering. They have not done cleansing flights and they cannot forage water now. I have 30-40 cm snow around the hives.

 

[foghornleghorn]

A dull 7 degrees here. No flight yet.


Map of mean days UK soil temp above 6 degrees versus Irish median (average is 20-30 days higher, this year it will be over 330 days here).

Does greater time spent in the 8-10 degree range explain why poly hives are on average maybe a frame or two smaller than timber counterparts?

Only other person I've heard of not being impressed with poly hives was a commercial beek based in Wexford...

 

[Hivemaker.]

Cheers, that metabolic equation rather oversimplifies the issue. It ignores the amount of water required to consume their stores. Less used to dilute honey surely means more available for anything else, but also ignores the absorbancy of wood further reducing available moisture( or perhaps creating a store of it).
Available water is unlikely to be an issue anywhere in the UK over winter , its usually dripping down the hive 5 days out of 7. But even then the theory doesnt " hold water" for me as for the likes of Finman large winter clusters and well insulated hives are the basics of wintering survival. Even in the US that holds true. Larger winter clusters equates to higher survival and faster build-up.

Who knows what was going through the heads of Mobus, et al.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I have not sold poly in over a decade. I stopped when the market got very silly, with so many new incompatible moulds being brought out and it was obviously going all fragmented and would eventually end in a lot of failures. I am thus neutral on the argument from a money standpoint...not trying to sell anyone poly hives any more, and unless the market rationalises onto a single standard pattern, will not do so again.

I also would like to see some standardization concerning poly hives. My guess is that the mixture of incompatibles will continue until companies go bust or decide that it's not worthwhile to sell/make them.

 

[Finman]

.
I know what are signs of thirsty hive in winter. It roars and it tries to come out in frosty weather, even if it does not get drinking water. Those hives are very rare, perhaps two in 10 years. Other hives are tight in their clusters.

If I give patty to bees now, hives become sick because they do not get drinking water from snow.

 

[Fusion_power]

I'd like to request that poly hive be permitted to link to the documents in this quote. It would help if more people read and then think about the findings.

I would add to my post thought that Mobus spent a lot of his time doing wintering experiments. His conclusions were printed in the ABJ and can be found on my site.

Poly hive mentions these results but does not quote the results as published. The short version is that bees in highly insulated hives as trialed by Mobus became desperately short of water as they wintered. This effect was amplified when two strong colonies were combined in the fall making one very strong colony for winter. Over winter, the colony did not metabolize enough honey which is the primary source of water when the bees cannot forage for extended periods of time. I don't want to sound pedantic on this point, but instead of feels good works good and lasts a long time verbiage, I want to see scientifically sound trials proving whether this effect occurs and if so what to do about it.

 

[TooBee...]

...I don't want to sound pedantic on this point, but instead of feels good works good and lasts a long time verbiage, I want to see scientifically sound trials proving whether this effect occurs and if so what to do about it.

I'm with you on this one, I'm convinced on the merits of insulated hives, I'm just wondering if something is lacking, based on the research papers cited, I'm inclined to think that an in hive supply of water may assist them... I'll need to build my apiary up to do the experiments myself.

 

[Poly Hive]

You need to go back to the paper by Jeffrey which was published as a talk by "The Central Association of Bee-Keepers" in April 1959. It does not have an ISBN number that I can find.

I can remember Bernard talking about the failure of the massive colony in the Winter and yes he put that down to water, but it was an artificially large unit and not one that would naturally occur. His point of course was that there are two extremes and the mean. One extreme being too big and the other too small with the mean range being "ideal".

Some may not realise but Bernard was German by birth and was at the forefront of bringing poly into the UK from at the time the one source which was German.

PH