Has anyone had worse overwintering by switching to poly?

[Poly Hive]

I bow to your knowledge there Hivemaker.

I would add to my post thought that Mobus spent a lot of his time doing wintering experiments. His conclusions were printed in the ABJ and can be found on my site.

PH

 

[foghornleghorn]

I was probably the 2nd person in the UK to run more than a handful of poly. The first was to my knowledge Struan Apiaries. Mobus was mentor to both of us.

My experience was this. In Spring about now in Aberdeenshire the timber units would be brooding and the poly would NOT. I distinctly remember coming back from offshore and being shocked at the differences and initially getting very worried about being Q- but every season the polys would kick in and after a further month, they would outstrip the timber units hands down.

Yes this is again anecdotal but Struan had the same experience and if there is doubt why would the big bee framers be changing over to poly? They are not riding hobby horses, people, they are making money.

PH

Your winters are different, compare them based on grass growing days:
Aberdeenshire is about 200days per year
South coast of Ireland is around 300
The only parts of the UK that are similar is around Pembroke and where hivemaker is in the very southwest UK.

Might our softer winter/more drawn out spring not be as suited to poly hives?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

wood, being a natural material, absorbs moisture. It isn't stable, it warps.

Should stop using recycled pallets then - never noticed any significant warping in my cedar nationals.

 

[For want of a better word]

My native Amm are all in cedar hives.... mostly standard National brood... some in OSB.. some in WBC.... all have open mesh floors and insulation over the crownboard and NO upper ventillation.

Yellow bees ( C group) are in a mix of polly and WRC( with omf and insulation above CB)

Different kinds of bees in different hive types in different aparies.

Neither seems to do much better than the other... except the yellow bees tend to be a bit more fragile.. and will eat any summer stores is weather changes.....

No difference.

 

[B+.]

Should stop using recycled pallets then - never noticed any significant warping in my cedar nationals.

I see your usual derogatory tone hasn't deserted you. I made a serious point which cannot be denied.
Wood soaks up water during winter. Poly doesn't. That has got to make a difference.

 

[JEP]

As the title, first year that I have enough hives in poly to make a decent comparison and they don't seem to have wintered quite as well as bees in timber hives have.
I'm putting it down to being more active and bees aging faster. We only had one or two frosty mornings all winter, so not really comparable to large parts of the uk.
All poly hives are in a single broodbox with poly roof (no vents) and mesh floor.

My honest view is there isn't a lot of difference. I bought about 100 Paynes poly hives around 4 years ago. I have over 100 wooden hives so should be able to compare fairly well. I had plenty of experience of poly nuc boxes before this (some Paynes and some Maisemore). I also have around 200 poly mini mating nucs, mostly swi-bines with a few apideas.

For mini mating nucs I think most would agree that poly wins hands down, added to which poly mating nucs are so cheap. Although I know that Hivemaker and some others have their own bespoke wooden mini nucs and they prefer them.

For "proper" nucs i.e. 5 or 6 standard frames I also personally think poly is a clear winner in overwintering success. Also these units are very well designed, easily transportable, don't really need a hive stand and incorporate a feeder. I think that late splits or weak colonies winter better in them than a wooden nuc in my area.

When is comes to full sized poly hives I would agree with what others have said on this thread, they start weaker in poly but can catch up later. Murray is clear that his poly units do better and I don't doubt his honesty. However his crop is nearly all taken from the heather at the end of the season which isn't the situation for most beekeepers where much of the crop comes in during the spring or early summer.

If Mobus was correct in his theories regarding water in the winter cluster, (I suspect he was correct) then weaker colonies should do better in insulated hives and stronger clusters should do better in wooden hives given an ambient temperature typical in the UK. This seems to fit with my observations in my area (the Peak District). It could also explain why good beekeepers with huge clusters of bees i.e. Brother Adam, Manley and Mike Palmer have had such poor results with insulated hives. Maybe their hives were too strong to benefit from the insulation and instead were harmed by it?

Clearly there must be a sweet spot in the relationship between colony size, ambient temperature over winter and the best amount of insulation. If you change one parameter e.g the winter is really cold like in Finland then more insulation is likely to help.

Would I buy more full sized poly hives? Probably not given their current cost but I am happy to carry on using the ones I have.

 

[Finman]

.
To a beginner biggest surprise is that the walls have very good insulation. The ceiling must have better insulation value, that ceiling is not colder than the walls. Hive moisture condensates then up to cold ceiling and dribble onto bees.

in frosty climate moisture condensates on the walls and on the lower parts of the frames . During warm days frost melts and water drills onto floor. The floor is a little bit tilted that water runs out via entrance.

 

[SDM]

Many of them are not, even having poly hives, they are now buying vast numbers of wooden hives instead.

Is that out of preference for the material or simply a matter of cost ?
In large numbers timber hives seem to drop far lower in cost than poly.

 

[SDM]

My native Amm are all in cedar hives.... mostly standard National brood... some in OSB.. some in WBC.... all have open mesh floors and insulation over the crownboard and NO upper ventillation.

Yellow bees ( C group) are in a mix of polly and WRC( with omf and insulation above CB)

Different kinds of bees in different hive types in different aparies.

Neither seems to do much better than the other... except the yellow bees tend to be a bit more fragile.. and will eat any summer stores is weather changes.....

No difference.

Different bees in different boxes and different areas.
How on earth can you make any claim over differences in performance by either bees or boxes ?

 

[Finman]

If you change one parameter e.g the winter is really cold like in Finland then more insulation is likely to help.

.

One parameter is that the winter is long. Bees are in the hive 5 months and cannot visit out. They make cleansing flight in March and then continue their winter rest one month.


One theory is that bees get drinking water from condensation on the walls. Our hives are so cold 5 months that bees cannot walk alone inside to pick up water.

If poly hives have systematic error as a wintering box in Britain, then most of hive should die in them during the winter. Plus in USA that one box.

 

[Finman]

Different bees in different boxes and different areas.
How on earth can you make any claim over differences in performance by either bees or boxes ?

Cheer use to speak about Italian bees all kind of bad. In Finland 90% of bees are Italian. They are good and they stand -40C weathers.

 

[foghornleghorn]

One parameter is that the winter is long. Bees are in the hive 5 months and cannot visit out. They make cleansing flight in March and then continue their winter rest one month.


One theory is that bees get drinking water from condensation on the walls. Our hives are so cold 5 months that bees cannot walk alone inside to pick up water.

If poly hives have systematic error as a wintering box in Britain, then most of hive should die in them during the winter. Plus in USA that one box.

What would you think would be the effect of a winter being mainly days of 8-10 degrees with wind and rain?

Just from observing the amount of dead bees from around the house here, the amount of bees not making it back from flights has been high this winter

 

[Finman]

?

Just from observing the amount of dead bees from around the house here, the amount of bees not making it back from flights has been high this winter

I bet that pollen in plants and sun invites bees out, Then cloud goes in front of sun and bees drop down.



Often I have lost often half of bees from hives when alder invites bees to trees. Then they drop into shadow or onto snow, and cannot rise again. Rain shower may give a last hit.

 

[JEP]

One parameter is that the winter is long. Bees are in the hive 5 months and cannot visit out. They make cleansing flight in March and then continue their winter rest one month.


One theory is that bees get drinking water from condensation on the walls. Our hives are so cold 5 months that bees cannot walk alone inside to pick up water.

If poly hives have systematic error as a wintering box in Britain, then most of hive should die in them during the winter. Plus in USA that one box.

Not had any problems with outright winter losses of colonies in poly boxes. As with wooden hives any colonies that are lost can be attributed to the usual causes - queen failure, starvation etc. My comments were based solely on observation of the early season strength of full colonies coming out of winter.

 

[Finman]

Not had any problems with outright winter losses of colonies .

No one admits varroa losses

.

 

[JEP]

No one admit varroa losses

.

I have lost loads of colonies to varroa in the past. These days I tend to go overkill on a diverse range of frequent mite treatments. I don't think I have lost any colonies directly to varroa for a long time now.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I see your usual derogatory tone hasn't deserted you. I made a serious point which cannot be denied.

I have no qualms on treating a comment that deserves contempt with what it deserves.
I repeat - have yet to see any of my hives warp, in winter or otherwise, so yes, it can be denied.

 

[B+.]

I have no qualms on treating a comment that deserves contempt with what it deserves.
I repeat - have yet to see any of my hives warp, in winter or otherwise, so yes, it can be denied.

Your 5 minutes are up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

 

[GuyNir]

Your 5 minutes are up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

Excellent

 

[For want of a better word]

Different bees in different boxes and different areas.
How on earth can you make any claim over differences in performance by either bees or boxes ?

EXACTLY.... you can not!

As Finnie our little snow pixie has said before... 2 hive owners for even 10 years experience can not compare to 100 hive owner for 5 years!

Too many variables.