Gentle queen purchases.

[small_newworld]

What do people consider to be the most gentle breed of bee to work with when considering Queen purchases?

Alot of people say that Buckfast or Carniolan are good- but what are your experiences?

 

[xgeordie]

I have kept both. The potential problem occurs when they cross with local mongrels - and you end up with bad tempered demons.

 

[small_newworld]

With the crossing in mind Geordie, which breed would hold the calm characteristcis after its crossed if not buckfast or carniolan?

 

[xgeordie]

Don't know. All I can tell you is two of my very gentle Carnie colonies turned really vicious when they requeened. My (currently) gentle Buckfasts could have similar problems. Depends on the genes of the local drones.

 

[madasafish]

My Carnies requeened last years: still very good natured.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Truth is, you have absolutely no idea what second generations of any of the strains - Buckfast, Carney, AMM, Killer Bees (well OK maybe them), will be like unless your queen is in a totally isolated gene pool, so I think there is little point worrying about it

 

[susbees]

Local mongrels selected for temperament and productivity and thrift. The whole idea of local breeding groups is based on common sense and allows a big gene pool to be involved in the mix.

The alternative is to buy perfect calm exotic queens...for good unless you're lucky with the next incumbant when locally mated. In that case buy next perfect calm...

And the other problem is that your "exotic" drones are upsetting other local beekeepers' queen matings.

 

[xgeordie]

And the other problem is that your "exotic" drones are upsetting other local beekeepers' queen matings.

Yes, but unfortunately I was unable to obtain bees locally.

 

[drstitson]

The only way to ensure keeping your stocks gentle is to buy in new queens every year or two to ensure that you're always working with F1s.

 

[xgeordie]

The only way to ensure keeping your stocks gentle is to buy in new queens every year or two to ensure that you're always working with F1s.

Think you mean you are always working with pure breds. The F1s are the cross.

 

[oliver90owner]

Think you mean you are always working with pure breds. The F1s are the cross.

No, not necessarily correct.

The F1s are often what you might be working with, so the next generation may be the bees from hell.

You may be purchasing open-mated queens and know nothing of the paternal side of your queen's genes. More thinking needed. Perhaps a piece of paper with the possible crosses listed and seeing where the random genes might kick in, would help many out there.

 

[susbees]

The only way to ensure keeping your stocks gentle is to buy in new queens every year or two to ensure that you're always working with F1s.

You mean purebreds (or perceived purebreds!), R.

Simply not true. Working with others locally you can select for temperament and productivity, culling the grumpy queens and the ones who can't regulate their brood patterns to the weather and see improvement quite quickly.

Sure if you want to buy local queens that fit the bill and only have a hive or two then that's your choice.

 

[xgeordie]

Perhaps a piece of paper with the possible crosses listed and seeing where the random genes might kick in, would help many out there.

Lol! Go on then.

 

[Black Comb]

Yes, but unfortunately I was unable to obtain bees locally.

Up here "local" suppliers often supply imported carnis bees and queens from E Europe (oops Germany) which of course is in the EU.

 

[drstitson]

No. For most hybrids (esp from Buckfast) it's the F2s that are your problem.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

(esp from Buckfast)

Is that just anecdotal doc?

 

[Jimmy]

No. For most hybrids (esp from Buckfast) it's the F2s that are your problem.

What's the correct use of the term F2 for honey bee crosses? If the F1s are open mated then strictly speaking they are not likely to be F2s as these are the offspring of an F1 x F1 mating.

 

[drstitson]

You're point of reference is your starting material for the cross.

"F1 - the first filial generation offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types."

Doesn't need to refer to pure racial parent stock.

Your "F2"s in the case of open mating locally would be a combination of a conventional F1xF1 cross (mating with own drones) and an F1xparent backcross (local drones assumed to represent a constant mongrel pool and hence same genetics available as for the original mating.

 

[Teemore]

The Queen may be of a 'pure'/identifiable strain but her progeny may not be. That'll depend on whether you are buying in mated Queens and how they have been mated/inseminated.
If you are buying in Virgins to mate in your own apiaries, their progeny are likely to be F1 - they are the bees you will be working.

Even if you buy-in mated Queens, unless they are island mated or instrumentally inseminated there is no absolute guarantee that the progeny will be pure to the original strain in terms of temperament or productivity.

Buying from a good queen breeder or queen rearer will increase the likelihood of getting a queen that produces docile workers. Sift through the old threads on the forum and you'll get a pointer or two about where to source queens.

 

[Jimmy]

You're point of reference is your starting material for the cross.

"F1 - the first filial generation offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types."

Doesn't need to refer to pure racial parent stock.

Your "F2"s in the case of open mating locally would be a combination of a conventional F1xF1 cross (mating with own drones) and an F1xparent backcross (local drones assumed to represent a constant mongrel pool and hence same genetics available as for the original mating.

I'm assuming that the F1 is as described above by DrS.
Has anyone shown whether it is the offspring of an F1xF1 cross that is more likely to produce feisty bees or whether it is the offspring of an F1xlocal parent backcross?

(as a diversionary aside, could the local parent drone population include drones from both original parents?)

I see that Northern Bee Books has a book by Mesquida called Elements of Genetics - any good?