Gas vap worth it ?

[pargyle]

Duly noted Pargyle thanks
So if Big Brother does give a hoot, I shall of course only be using Apibioxal

Of course... and if you can demonstrate that you have bought some apibioxal and you have kept a record of when you treated the bees then any residue of OA found in a sample can be easily explained - the lack of glucose and sugar would be because the bees have used or eaten them ! Just the OA residue left Your Honour. Minimum pack of apibioxal is £10.75 .. two jars of honey buys a lot of peace of mind ....

Just saying of course ...

 

[pargyle]

The morality of the situation imho is that in this case the vmd are doing the work of the dark side and by association the nbu, I think they should stand their ground and make the vmd do their own foot soldier work, it devalues the relationship aspect of the inspectors having to be generic oxalic police.

Totally agree ... isn't this the way of the world these days ?

 

[Beefriendly]

Just the OA residue left Your Honour.

OA is a natural ingredient found in every honey....
Studies have shown that levels in honey did not increase after vaping OA.

 

[Angry_Mob]

How much would it cost to get generic OA approved,? Thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions?

Is it something we could crowdfund in the UK?

 

[Erichalfbee]

How much would it cost to get generic OA approved,? Thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions?

Is it something we could crowdfund in the UK?

Not likely? Can you licence a generic?
There are lots of generic oxalic preps on the market. They vary in contaminants. Some don’t even list them.
Maybe it would work for the tablets that enrico uses

 

[maz0]

How much would it cost to get generic OA approved,? Thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions?

Is it something we could crowdfund in the UK?

It's probably something to do with needing a distributor or manufacturer to put their name to the product, someone who can be held legally responsible if there is ever any liability issues...not sure if you can just crowd fund approval of an organic compound on its own....worth a try if possible!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The first is that it lacks sugar. My perception is that the presence of sugar in the licensed formulation is deemed an inconvenience and a contaminant. But I suspect that the presence of sugar and the formation of HMF on heating may actually be intended therapeutically as a miticide:
.............
I also suspect that the licensed product being a combination product is less likely to result in resistance in the longer term as the presence of sugar is known to increase the efficacy of OA and combination therapies are less prone to resistance.

Let's be honest about it - the presence of sugar and other elements of fairy dust in the mix is there just to make the product distinguishable from generic OA, if they hadn't done this, the licence they are hoping to make money from would have covered bog standard OA as well as their snake oil.

 

[Beefriendly]

Not likely? Can you licence a generic?

You can licence what a chemical can be used for regarding animal veterinary treatments. It is possible for someone or company to prepare a fact file on pure OA dihydrated and present to the VMD for approval as a licenced treatment for varroa. Similar to apibioxal, that company or person would then have the sole distribution rights to sell OA used to treat varroa. But it's expensive and IIUC there is a yearly licence fee to renew.

OA is widely used throughout the rest of Europe and as far as I know is an accepted treatment for varroa but not in the UK.
Bonkers.

 

[B+.]

You can licence what a chemical can be used for regarding animal veterinary treatments. It is possible for someone or company to prepare a fact file on pure OA dihydrated and present to the VMD for approval as a licenced treatment for varroa. Similar to apibioxal, that company or person would then have the sole distribution rights to sell OA used to treat varroa. But it's expensive and IIUC there is a yearly licence fee to renew.

OA is widely used throughout the rest of Europe and as far as I know is an accepted treatment for varroa but not in the UK.
Bonkers.

I thought compounds that were licensed for use by an EU authority were cascaded to member states as authorised for use. I wonder how many new compounds we'll lose access to if Boris has his way.

Maybe it's a bit to say this here but I find it incongruent for people to complain about other nationalities not following the law when those who use oxalic acid sublimation are doing precisely that.

 

[Karol]

Let's be honest about it - the presence of sugar and other elements of fairy dust in the mix is there just to make the product distinguishable from generic OA, if they hadn't done this, the licence they are hoping to make money from would have covered bog standard OA as well as their snake oil.

I don't think that's the case. There's no patented IP protecting the licensed formulation meaning that Apibioxal is actually a generic vm. That being the case anyone can copy the formulation but they would have to licence it for it to be used legally. The term generic OA is an oxymoron because the OA can only be 'generic' medicinally speaking when it is actually licenced as a medicines.

I suspect better efficacy is why the licenced product contains sugar/glycerin as they could quite easily have just plumped for pure OA and obtained the same degree of protection viz unlicenced OA.

 

[enrico]

and I think Simon the beekeeper has stopped selling them. The VMD apparently have been in contact with a number of suppliers of unlicensed veterinary medicines that were being openly marketed in the UK making it plain that they are infringing the regs just offering products for sale ... I don't know whether this included OA being sold by beekeeping suppliers. However... if I were marketing apibioxal about the first thing I would do is find a way to stymie the competition... I would not suggest that they would but the only competition they have is generic OA ....

Maybe but maisemore still sell them!! Shh!!
E

 

[Beefriendly]

I suspect better efficacy is why the licenced product contains sugar/glycerin .

Colloidal silica hydrate and glucose monhydrate are the added ingredients, not glycerin. It states it can be used for vaping, but it's not fit for purpose as neither the glucose or silca sublimate and they leaves a horrible hard to remove residue behind on or in your vaporiser of choice.

 

[Fritillary]

Colloidal silica hydrate and glucose monhydrate are the added ingredients, not glycerin. It states it can be used for vaping, but it's not fit for purpose as neither the glucose or silca sublimate and they leaves a horrible hard to remove residue behind on or in your vaporiser of choice.

- So you are saying that the only licensed product is not actually fit for purpose? ?!

 

[Beefriendly]

- So you are saying that the only licensed product is not actually fit for purpose? ?!

It works as the OA sublimates and does the job but the residue from the heated glucose and silica gums up your vaporiser. From what I am told pure OA leaves no residue.
To find them advising it is suitable for vaping when it is destroying/making it really hard to clean the machinery is a bit of a joke when there are cleaner alternatives.
The additives are unlikely to have any deleterious effects if trickling OA solution.

 

[Fritillary]

Well. If so, then what is the normally fastidiously law-abiding beekeeper, but one whose duty of care to their bees is going to be of primary importance, to do in such a situation?
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable defence to me!

(Trickling is not, for instance, suitable with top bar hives, but vaping is ideal.)

 

[charlievictorbravo]

yeah good tip on the extra caps

my only issue is I have to shave to use the mask !

For me. the issue is I cannot wear spectacles whilst wearing the full-face mask.

CVB

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well. If so, then what is the normally fastidiously law-abiding beekeeper, but one whose duty of care to their bees is going to be of primary importance, to do in such a situation?
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable defence to me!

(Trickling is not, for instance, suitable with top bar hives, but vaping is ideal.)

I guess if you are not taking a honey crop or using it just for yourself you can do what you like. Just don’t advertise it.

 

[pargyle]

Well. If so, then what is the normally fastidiously law-abiding beekeeper, but one whose duty of care to their bees is going to be of primary importance, to do in such a situation?
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable defence to me!

(Trickling is not, for instance, suitable with top bar hives, but vaping is ideal.)

Two options... use one of the other varroacides available or contravene the VMD regs and hope the excrement stays away from the propeller! You could also write to the BBKA and to the new minister responsible for FERA and complain.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This conversation happens every year. I think we should all not only be very circumspect about what is used if it contravenes VMD regulations but equally wary of suggesting it to anybody else. The regulations are quite clear. Only licensed products should be used and in the prescribed manner.

 

[Karol]

Colloidal silica hydrate and glucose monhydrate are the added ingredients, not glycerin. It states it can be used for vaping, but it's not fit for purpose as neither the glucose or silca sublimate and they leaves a horrible hard to remove residue behind on or in your vaporiser of choice.

I think you'll find that both glucose and HMF both sublime but not as much as OA and I suspect that the OA acts as a 'carrier' to enhance sublimation of glucose and HMF in the formulation.

Speaking again purely clinically, I can't understand why any company would invest in a formulation that was inconvenient to clean after use unless there was some benefit clinically over pure OA? If the licenced product were as 'clean' to use as pure OA then they'd mop up the market so why would they pursue an inferior marketing proposition especially as it would be easy enough to licence the pure OA?

That said, I fully accept, not all decisions taken by pharma are as enlightened as one might expect.