Frame Assembly

[Cussword]

I'm going foundation-less this year, so my frame making is going to be a little more tricky.

Question, if you don't use foundation (in national type hives), would you receive less honey long term?

ie, Would the bees eat more honey stores to produce more wax?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Question, if you don't use foundation (in national type hives), would you receive less honey long term?

ie, Would the bees eat more honey stores to produce more wax?

That goes without saying - they have to use honey to make wax,any frames that need drawing (whether you use foundation or not) will mean the bees will have to divert honey for wax production, but long term.... it depends whether you, once you have extracted the first time then put the drawn frames back the next season in which case the only extra honey they have used is for the septum which they have had to build in lieu of foundation which is a very small amount as it will be waaaay thinner than any foundation that can be produced. Whatever garbled ranting which will now be issued by Jussi Boring from his remote ice cave

 

[Tremyfro]

If they draw the wax for foundationless during the spring and you feed the light syrup....cheaper than honey...I wonder then what the comparison is in costs?
Last year, the colony I was preparing for making queen cells and as a brooding colony, was fed syrup. The spring weather wasn't the best so that is why I fed them...to simulate a flow. They built a whole box of comb on foundation and quite a few more as I took some out for my nucs....probably 15 frames of BS national and some 14x12. The queen was a prolific layer and she filled 4 frames in the top box too. So does it depend also on requirement for laying space for the queen?
So is it more economical to feed instead of buying foundation?

 

[Finman]

If they draw the wax for foundationless during the spring and you feed the light syrup....cheaper than honey...I wonder then what
So is it more economical to feed instead of buying foundation?

Absolutely sugar feeding is more economical, because part of sugar turns to honey.

Bees do not make walls to cells if cells are not filled with sugar/ nectar. So you must fill the combs with syrup.

But how I do. I take old waxes, carry them to foundation maker. It costs £ 2.50/kg, when he makes foundations to me.

One kilo wax needs 6-8 kg honey. A kilo foundations is 2.50 and, 7 kg sugar is 3.50

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Last year, the colony I was preparing for making queen cells and as a brooding colony, was fed syrup. The spring weather wasn't the best so that is why I fed them...to simulate a flow. They built a whole box of comb on foundation and quite a few more as I took some out for my nucs....probably 15 frames of BS national and some 14x12. The queen was a prolific layer and she filled 4 frames in the top box too. So does it depend also on requirement for laying space for the queen?
So is it more economical to feed instead of buying foundation?

Trying to get bees to draw comb in the spring is very dependent on whether they need the space - in most instances if there is no flow,they will be reluctant to draw comb they will just store the syrup - if there is a flow on, they will use both for storing as well as wax making, so unless you can find a way of persuading them to use sugar syrup for wax and nectar for honey you are going to end up with a high sugar content in your stores thus it will not be honey (whether for own use, or definitely a nono for sale) ipso facto it will be less 'economical' as you won't have a viable harvest from that colony

 

[Tremyfro]

Yes I understand that. I wanted to use the stored syrup for my nucs anyway...so it didn't matter that it was a mix of syrup and nectar. The frames I was left with I spun out the mixture and used the empty comb for my nucs too. The syrup mix was fed to the bees when the Great Nectar Dearth descended upon us in July! Nothing was wasted. I agree that it is the need for comb either to use for brood or honey storage which drives the bees to build the wax but available nectar source can be replaced by syrup. I wanted brood comb and my bees had a great queen. This was a colony I used for increase so no honey was anticipated.
After making my nucs last year I was left with a 3 frame colony with the original queen. I gave them wax coated plastic foundation....they built comb on 12 frames...so hopefully this year they will be set for making some honey.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I get mine pre-made.

Same here.

 

[B+.]

As the colony expands to fill the cavity in Spring, you will see that they will need more space. The way to get comb drawn is to alternate drawn comb with foundation. As they draw out the foundation, you can swap it for another or allow them to fill it with honey/brood. Its up to you.
If you watch Mike Palmers videos on how he draws out foundation above nucleus colonies, you'll see that this is quite a good way to get a supply of spare drawn comb. Later in the season, you'll want to add drawn comb rather than foundation, so, its good to have a spare batch of drawn combs available.

 

[Finman]

.
I give my combs to be drawn during main yield.

In spring bees need tight champer that it is warm. It is not time to hive extra space, and bees are not willing to draw new combs.

Good moment is too, when you found AS on foundations.

To make frames and get new combs is very easy, if you do not take it as some kind of art.. But it is very easy to make it really difficult, if you want.

.

 

[Finman]

.
I give my combs to be drawn during main yield.

In spring bees need tight champer that it is warm. It is not time to give extra space, and bees are not willing to draw new combs too early.

Good moment is too, when you found AS on foundations.

To make frames and get new combs is very easy, if you do not take it as some kind of art..

Spring honey is aromatic, and I do not want to consume that in wax making.

 

[Millet]

I love messing about with wood and even more so the smell of the wax foundation,but the aroma of them Cedar hives is something else, .
Here is how i clag them together.

 

[B+.]

.
I give my combs to be drawn during main yield.

Yes. The main yield here is OSR which flowers in April/May here. That is classed as spring.
I would give a box of alternate comb and foundation if I needed comb. You may say, where will they put the fresh nectar if they haven't enough comb area. I would agree. Its a problem. It will end up as a competition between laying space for the queen and storage space for the fresh nectar and, in all probability, lead to swarming preparations if you don't give them enough comb

 

[Cussword]

Why do you have two nails on the bottom left?

Sorry, too slow. The question is about Millet's photo.

 

[B+.]

Why do you have two nails on the bottom left?

Stop nit-picking! ....pretend its a staple!

 

[Finman]

in all probability, lead to swarming preparations if you don't give them enough comb

Give to them as much combs as they need. And make them draw the combs previous summer. Store so much combs to next year that you are not in trouble.
.
Move you hives to better pastures in summer, that they have something better to forage.

 

[Cussword]

Stop nit-picking! ....pretend its a staple!

 

[B+.]

Give to them as much combs as they need in spring. And make them draw the combs previous summer. Store so much combs to next year that you are not in trouble.
.
Move you hives to better pastures in summer, that they have something better to forage.

I agree Finman. The optimum honey crop would be obtained by providing all comb, but, I was trying to offer advice for someone who may not have a large supply of drawn comb. They have to start somewhere and they may not have combs from the previous summer.
By late April/early May, there should be lots of young bees eager to draw comb. Its a good time to get a few sheets of extra comb....although they do tend to concentrate in the centre (the warmest part of the hive)

 

[Millet]

Why do you have two nails on the bottom left?

Sorry, too slow. The question is about Millet's photo.

I don't like battering one in on the hoffman spacer side so i fire 2 in on the flat side and they are pretty secure doing it this way, is that what you where wondering..

 

[B+.]

I don't like battering one in on the hoffman spacer side so i fire 2 in on the flat side and they are pretty secure doing it this way

The problem I can see with this is that the frame may warp as its only secured on the left
Are you using a nailgun? I fire a 1 3/8" staple straight down through the top bar into the side-bars. It makes a very strong joint

 

[Millet]

The problem I can see with this is that the frame may warp as its only secured on the left
Are you using a nailgun? I fire a 1 3/8" staple straight down through the top bar into the side-bars. It makes a very strong joint

Can you not see the little bit of text i put on the right hand side, also i don't like the idea of nailing down through the top bars into the side bars as the nails can be pulled out with downward force, hammer and nails no nail gun used..