Foundationless Frames

[beeno]

50% of all my frames are foundationless (starter strip). I make up new boxes with alternate full foundation sheets. In my experience the bees draw the starter strips first. Frames with starter strips can also be added between drawn frames or next to the wall.
You do have to be careful, when inspecting, if the comb has not been attached to the side and/or bottom bars, but after a while the frame is usually full and indistinguishable from a frame started with foundation.

You may find it interesting that the beee choose a top bar in preference to a frame

 

[pargyle]

You may find it interesting that the beee choose a top bar in preference to a frame

Interesting ... I did a bit of an experiment in my Long deep hive in the early days .. I gave my bees three options ... just a flat top bar with no frame. a frame with a flat top bar and a frame with a triangular strip of timber tacked to the under side of the frame top bar. I tried several times with the options in different positions ... the frame with the triangular strip got the best reaction from the bees ... the top bar and the frame without the starter were always the ones that got started by the bees last .. regardless of where they were sited.. So I'm not sure whether this quick and dirty experiment told me a lot but I try always to use waxed triangular starter strips as these seem to work best for me. The bees also seem to start off with a good straight comb as well rather than wandering off into creativity. Perhaps the downward facing point of the apex points them in the right direction ?

 

[happyculteur]

I string thin fishing line 2 or 3 times across the frame and the wax is pretty firmly held once they incorporate that in.

I used to do that, but found that the bees often chewed through the line.

 

[bingevader]

In the contrary. We all need experts. None of us know everything.
Some of us need a sense of humour

Oh dear, it was meant as a compliment to you!
Never mind, but my sense of humour is fine, that's why a liberally sprinkle the emojis, in the hope that I am not misinterpreted!
Failed again!

 

[pargyle]

I used to do that, but found that the bees often chewed through the line.

I use stainless steel wire, crimping pliers and put brass eyelets in the holes in the side bars. You can get a fairly reasonable tension on the wires and crimping them makes them 'sing'. ( I have a jig to hold the frame and just a pair of pliers to pull the wires tight). Three wires horizontally on brood frames - I sometimes put one horizontally in super frames if I have time but it seems less of a problem in supers. I also have a jig to measure the correct length of wire needed.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oh dear, it was meant as a compliment to you!
Never mind, but my sense of humour is fine, that's why a liberally sprinkle the emojis, in the hope that I am not misinterpreted!
Failed again!

My apologies. It was me who got it wrong.

 

[hemo]

I have tried a few frames for the first time this year on BS Deep, strung 3 horizontals of 25lb monofilament and a small starter strip. No line chewing and comb being drawn, initially following the worker size then a mix of worker or drone cell. I shall continue with starter strip frames next year and will include a whole BB to see what they do as well as supers, I have decided if they want to draw drone cell size then that is what they want. The thing I notice is if they then want worker cell they simply convert the drone cells.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

I have used starter strips with bamboo skewers, which seem to work well.
I find it interesting how the bees use the vertical skewers to separate the types of cell they want.
I nearly came a cropper in one hive, where one frame, without the skewers was only secured at the top.

 

[madasafish]

I use stainless steel wire, crimping pliers and put brass eyelets in the holes in the side bars. You can get a fairly reasonable tension on the wires and crimping them makes them 'sing'. ( I have a jig to hold the frame and just a pair of pliers to pull the wires tight). Three wires horizontally on brood frames - I sometimes put one horizontally in super frames if I have time but it seems less of a problem in supers. I also have a jig to measure the correct length of wire needed.

I don't bother with eyelets in Lang jumbos..

SO the wire sinks into the wood.. so what. Never had one pull through and break the wood.
Wires snapping is a different issue -happens occasionally.

But then I am lazy.

 

[beeno]

Did anyone say otherwise? and when the beekeeper puts new frames in the hive, they have no idea which one will get selected.

Apparently it will be one very close to the entrance where all the unloading of nectar happens.

 

[beeno]

This is a reply to Amanda's reply to me. Cannot get passed page one on this thread at the moment. I still seem to have a lot of glitches on some of the threads I frequent. The moderators are on these threads to. Any problems we should know about?
My nailed on strips to the top bars are square not triangular!

 

[robmort]

I use wooden spatulas as starters (£3 for 100) glued into the groove for foundation under the top bar and they work well. 14x12 frames.
No problem with cross-comb.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Apparently it will be one very close to the entrance where all the unloading of nectar happens.

And what if the hive is 'cold way'?

 

[Courty]

I tried foundationless brood frames this year for the first time, on the whole they worked well. I used bamboo sticks and cut down strips of foundation, 2cm in the grooves wheld in place with melted wax. I also tried the triangles left by tearing out the wires.
I haven’t noticed which they prefer.
I had one drawn with combs at angles which I cut off and held in place on an empty frame with rubber bands as they had brood in them, the bees filled out around them to complete the frame.
sometimes they miss a frame and start the next one, twisting it to fill the void of the one they skipped. I try to push those back in line.
I think alternating with foundation is a good idea to get them drawn straight.
Courty

 

[1amanda1]

Thanks for all your replies. Lots of ideas and things to try. I will go through the supers when I extract and choose the straightest frames to alternate with next year.

 

[fiat500bee]

I had a new idea today. As I'm currently running the hive with nine frames per box because of the late season arrival of our nucs, I may need to add a frame per box on tomorrow's inspection...the bees are working furiously in lovely warm weather on the vast swathes of balsam on the local river. I haven't even got one sheet of foundation so can't even use strips of it as starters. But I do have spare frames and a whole hive's worth of plastic foundation which was supplied with our starter hive (I was a complete ignoramus and had no idea).

So I've cut strip that foundation as wide as a ruler, secured them to the top of the frame and then given them a generous coating of wax, especially along the lower edge.

I've enjoyed experimenting with technique and if it fails I won't be cross or frustrated, but if it works I should have enough of the stuff to fill my next six hives..........!?*$!£££££££

 

[sean-a]

My experience is you need to alternate drawn frames with undrawn foundationless ones to keep the bees straight.
I have had so many that have been bridging frames that I will use foundation if there is a new undrawn box without drawn wax to alternate

 

[bobthecob]

I had a new idea today. As I'm currently running the hive with nine frames per box because of the late season arrival of our nucs, I may need to add a frame per box on tomorrow's inspection...the bees are working furiously in lovely warm weather on the vast swathes of balsam on the local river. I haven't even got one sheet of foundation so can't even use strips of it as starters. But I do have spare frames and a whole hive's worth of plastic foundation which was supplied with our starter hive (I was a complete ignoramus and had no idea).

So I've cut strip that foundation as wide as a ruler, secured them to the top of the frame and then given them a generous coating of wax, especially along the lower edge.

I've enjoyed experimenting with technique and if it fails I won't be cross or frustrated, but if it works I should have enough of the stuff to fill my next six hives..........!?*$!£££££££

Can't see any reason why that wouldn't work, though never used plastic foundation myself. Good idea.

 

[Madge]

...But I do have spare frames and a whole hive's worth of plastic foundation ...

So I've cut strip that foundation as wide as a ruler, ...

As you’ve got that plastic foundation now, I think it will be far better for you to use them as intended, and instead create strip foundation frames by using wooden tongue depressors, glued in place (or any of the other options already mentioned).

 

[fiat500bee]

As you’ve got that plastic foundation now, I think it will be far better for you to use them as intended, and instead create strip foundation frames by using wooden tongue depressors, glued in place (or any of the other options already mentioned).

I'm doing that as well and they really don't have an appetite for the stuff. All of the above options were found by experiment, so I'm experimenting too.