Foundationless Frames

[1amanda1]

I would like to hear from anyone who uses foundationless frames. How do you stop the bees building comb across more than one frame?

I have tried wax strips and at the moment I am trying triangular strips of wood nailed to the top. Both work well sometimes and other times the bees just build willy-nilly in all directions.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Here you are
You start alternating empty frames with drawn ones to keep the bee drawn frames straight. It works very well providing the hive is level. I have a couple of colonies on FF but as I run 14x12 I have to reinforce the comb by wiring the frames with fishing line. Other people use bamboo skewers. With a National you probably don't need this. Nail a starter strip under the wedge, or pour a little wax on it or turn the wedge round and nail it up are all good ways of getting the bees to start drawing the frame in the right place

Pargyle is the expert. He'll be along soon I guess

 

[bobthecob]

I would like to hear from anyone who uses foundationless frames. How do you stop the bees building comb across more than one frame?

I have tried wax strips and at the moment I am trying triangular strips of wood nailed to the top. Both work well sometimes and other times the bees just build willy-nilly in all directions.

Firstly can I check what type of hive you are using? The answers you get will be slightly different if you are using nationals than if you are using a top bar hive. Cheers

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think even with Nationals it's worth wiring the frames as, as we have all observed, bee's don't like attacking the comb to the bottom asd side bars of the frames as it dampens vibrations on their 'dance floor'
As for starter strips, you could even just, not remove the wedge from a new top bat but, fill the channel made by the saw cut with wax as a starter.
When I first arrived at the orphanage in Lesotho, they had just put the langstroths they had been gifted out in the peach orchards, frames inside, but all the foundation safely packed away in a drawer in the office! however, four out of the five hives occupied by swarms had perfectly drawn frames with the bees using the channel cut in the top bar as a guide - even the other hive had followed the groove for most of the way! And considering the Hoffman frames were milled for European bee spacings not Adansoni, I was pretty impressed.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Firstly can I check what type of hive you are using? The answers you get will be slightly different if you are using nationals than if you are using a top bar hive. Cheers

look at Amanda's profile - Nationals

 

[madasafish]

I started beekeeping with TBHs - at one stage I had eight iirc. All foundationless.

I always used a wooden triangle under the top bar and rubbed it with wax.

I found inserting empty frames in between straight ones was the best way to get straight comb...
I also inspected weekly and AT THE FIRST SIGN of cross combing, cut all the cross comb out - Trying to reattach it straight did not work as it was so soft.. One year I did not and sorted it out in early spring - never again.

I had all hives facing S or SE - whether that made any difference I have no idea..

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Noticed the other day a foundationless frame or two in a hive I was inspecting, probably from bait hives a friend asked me to put in his orchard a few years ago - just for fun!!so would have been in a straight set of nine or ten empty wired frames with a starter strip, perfectly drawn and if I hadn't notived the tree holes in the side bars drilled to take the wires I would have been totally unaware (in fact, I was totally unaware as I thought the last had gone in a Demarre a few years ago, obviously these had been popped back in the 'good for another Demarree next year' box!!)

 

[Parsonage Bees]

The worst cross combing I've had was when I left a swarm alone for a couple of weeks and the foundationless frames ( with 2 vertical bamboo skewers) were not spaced correctly. See gaps between Hoffman frames.

 

[bingevader]

Here you are
You start alternating empty frames with drawn ones to keep the bee drawn frames straight. It works very well providing the hive is level. I have a couple of colonies on FF but as I run 14x12 I have to reinforce the comb by wiring the frames with fishing line. Other people use bamboo skewers. With a National you probably don't need this. Nail a starter strip under the wedge, or pour a little wax on it or turn the wedge round and nail it up are all good ways of getting the bees to start drawing the frame in the right place

Pargyle is the expert. He'll be along soon I guess

Not sure we need the 'expert'.
We don't put any wire or bamboo and the bees do fine.
Just need to be a bit more careful when observing, but the technique is the same, rotate long ways not side ways.
The bit about being level is important. Like Parsonage Bees, we had a swarm draw out a bait hive at 45°!

 

[beeno]

Hi Amanda, I use a mixture of foundationless top bars and hoffman frames. Initially for reasons of costs as I did not know whether I was going to take to this new hobby, but now because I do not want second hand wax. As Dani says, to get them drawn, in between two drawn combs or hive wall and drawn frame. Most of the time they build well with little or no corrective measures needed, but I had one this year which I have designated bad comb builders. Swarms with no guide combs bar one I go in after 5 days to make sure all is well and usually it has been - perhaps I have been lucky. I have hives facing all ways but west to keep flight paths within my garden. And as with Jenkins African friends I "mingle". As a matter of fact there is only one dedicated "dance floor" per hive.

 

[beeno]

Here you are
I have a couple of colonies on FF but as I run 14x12 I have to reinforce the comb by wiring the frames with fishing line. Other people use bamboo skewers.

So do I, but no reinforcements! Have to be extremely careful with virgin combs though. Giving 14x12 up in due course. I can see myself working my way down to beekeeping on super frames as double brood gets heavy with honey!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Not sure we need the 'expert'.

In the contrary. We all need experts. None of us know everything.
Some of us need a sense of humour

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As a matter of fact there is only one dedicated "dance floor" per hive.

Did anyone say otherwise? and when the beekeeper puts new frames in the hive, they have no idea which one will get selected.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Did anyone say otherwise? and when the beekeeper puts new frames in the hive, they have no idea which one will get selected.

And did you know that if you move it the bees find where it’s gone and use it rather than it’s replacement

 

[pargyle]

Before you go too far with this thread ... our lapsed expert was Tom Bick ... there is a reallu good thread here which is well worth a read for those newer members who weren't around in those days ..

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/foundationless-beekeeping.27494/

 

[beeno]

Did anyone say otherwise? and when the beekeeper puts new frames in the hive, they have no idea which one will get selected.

I did not want anyone to interpret that all frames that were not attached to the side bars or the bottom bar would be the dance floor.

 

[gmonag]

50% of all my frames are foundationless (starter strip). I make up new boxes with alternate full foundation sheets. In my experience the bees draw the starter strips first. Frames with starter strips can also be added between drawn frames or next to the wall.
You do have to be careful, when inspecting, if the comb has not been attached to the side and/or bottom bars, but after a while the frame is usually full and indistinguishable from a frame started with foundation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Before you go too far with this thread ... our lapsed expert was Tom Bick ... there is a reallu good thread here which is well worth a read for those newer members who weren't around in those days ..

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/foundationless-beekeeping.27494/

Absolutely lovely chap. Used to make beehives. Great with wood and he had a lovely workshop. He made me a desk top WBC. Beautiful and made from cedar too. He’s an SBI now or was

 

[smitten]

50% of all my frames are foundationless (starter strip). I make up new boxes with alternate full foundation sheets. In my experience the bees draw the starter strips first. Frames with starter strips can also be added between drawn frames or next to the wall.
You do have to be careful, when inspecting, if the comb has not been attached to the side and/or bottom bars, but after a while the frame is usually full and indistinguishable from a frame started with foundation.

Pretty similar to my experience, although I use a tongue depressor instead of a wax starter strip. I intermingle (not necessarily alternately) with foundation or drawn comb and never had a problem with the bees drawing it at angles. I string thin fishing line 2 or 3 times across the frame and the wax is pretty firmly held once they incorporate that in.

They also work great in a bait hive, alongside a single frame of brood comb, as the scouts get the sense of space but they comb build in the right direction.

 

[pargyle]

Absolutely lovely chap. Used to make beehives. Great with wood and he had a lovely workshop. He made me a desk top WBC. Beautiful and made from cedar too. He’s an SBI now or was

Yes ..Tom helped me a lot in the early days .. always happy to give you a proper answer to a question and a very thinking beekeeper. His woodworking skills were awesome ... at one point he was living on a narrow boat on the Thames as I recall and had a small woodworking business. He was an SBI still last year ... I heard from someone - can't remember who .. that had come across him and he was still very busy. Sad loss to the forum .. not seen for many years now.