Foundation alternatives

[pargyle]

That's an interesting observation, it could even be that the differential flexing of wire & wax weakens the comb during extraction....
I'll try some foundationless this season and see what happens

Intersperse the foundationless frames with drawn frames and they will not get creative. I nail triangular 'starter strips' below the top bar and paint it with wax - works well for me but there are lots of other options.

 

[brinicombe.p]

I heard that when bees are allowed to make their own foundation they adjust the size of the cells for what is needed. I plan to go foundationless this year, running three strands of wire in empty frames for the purpose of inspecting without risk of damaging the comb. At harvest time I plan to cut out the comb and use an apple press to squeeze out the honey, saving the wax for other uses.

 

[pargyle]

I heard that when bees are allowed to make their own foundation they adjust the size of the cells for what is needed. I plan to go foundationless this year, running three strands of wire in empty frames for the purpose of inspecting without risk of damaging the comb. At harvest time I plan to cut out the comb and use an apple press to squeeze out the honey, saving the wax for other uses.

Yes ... that's true they do build what they want - but they will do that anyway if they need to - even when you give them foundation. I see more drone comb in my foundationless frames than there is in some beekeepers colonies provided with foundation - is it a bad thing ? Not in my opinion - if that's what the bees want who am I to discourage them.

You don't need to wire super frames for inspection reasons - it's only there as a support for when you are rotary extracting them.

If you are going to crush and strain then you would be better without wires. However, you would be better advised to buy a cheap extractor - crush and strain is very wasteful - more so if you do it every year.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

I'm just impatient, I guess.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I heard that when bees are allowed to make their own foundation they adjust the size of the cells for what is needed.

Yes. More drone especially at periphery of nest. Bees like around 20%

 

[JamezF]

I quite like the idea of foundationless with bamboo skewers though!

Worked very nicely for me last year. You just have to be rigorous with your frame manipulations in terms of flipping them around etc. when the comb is not fixed to the skewers and bottom.

James

 

[Garry R]

I quite like the idea of foundationless with bamboo skewers though!

Works a treat with 14 x 12" frames and seems to prevent the gap bees nibble appearing at the bottom of these frames which I see quite a bit at apiary visits elsewhere, Any 14 x 12" with this gap seem pretty fragile during inspections on warm days but vertical bamboo skewers help out. For 14 x 12" frames I drill two small holes (skewer sized!) one each side of the mid line in the top bar in two positions per frame. Put the foundation in and put the skewers in, point first, one each side of the mid line and the points end up in the gap between to bottom bars. They are a perfect length but they now trap the foundation between the skewers and this prevents warping of the foundation sheets and anchors the comb during inspections. I also use a very short length of foundation wire twisting it mid frame and binding the skewers together. This intrusion on the combs does not seem to affect the bees and their comb building at all.

 

[user 819]

I tried 30lbs fishing line however mine like to chew it so the skewers in the broods works fine.

 

[Steve7962]

Here’s a foundationless frame from last year, the swarm pulled this comb out in less than a week. This year every single frame, all 10national deep and 7 commercial brood boxes worth will be foundationless. I’ve used the wood that usually holds the foundation to sandwich tongue depressors and 2 kebab skewers in place, will save an absolute fortune plus the bees get the comb they want.

 

[Etton]

I used starter strips this year on brood frames with bamboo sticks as support - most created just drone brood comb. I had interspersed them in the bb.

 

[Vernon Purcell]

Here’s a foundationless frame from last year, the swarm pulled this comb out in less than a week. This year every single frame, all 10national deep and 7 commercial brood boxes worth will be foundationless. I’ve used the wood that usually holds the foundation to sandwich tongue depressors and 2 kebab skewers in place, will save an absolute fortune plus the bees get the comb they want.
View attachment 39186

Home made frames aswell ?

 

[Amaranth]

To avoid misleading the unwary, it may be kind to emphasise that two preconditions for using foundationless frames are
1) the hive must be perfectly level across all the frames so that combs, which hang vertically in construction whilst the wax is still soft, don’t hang too close to the adjacent comb and become incorporated with it, and
2) each new foundationless comb must be placed between two well drawn combs, until it nearly fully drawn..

There are many advantages to moving to foundationless brood frames, but to begin with the new frames need to be phased in carefully, amongst drawn frames, until over a couple of seasons you have changed over completely.

Has anyone tried extracting foundationless that has not had brood in it to reinforce it?

 

[JamezF]

2) each new foundationless comb must be placed between two well drawn combs, until it nearly fully drawn..

I don't believe this to be true in all cases. Certainly I've used foundationless frames in bait hives (and no other type of frame) and the bees have drawn the comb "correctly" across the entire hive body. I deliberately do it that way in fact, so the scout bees get the full "forty litre" experience when they come checking it out.

If foundationless frames are being swapped into an established colony however, I'd be far more inclined to interleave them with fully-drawn frames.

James

 

[Amaranth]

That’s good to know. Yes I agree the “forty litre experience” is important in a bait hive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

1) the hive must be perfectly level across all the frames so that combs, which hang vertically in construction whilst the wax is still soft, don’t hang too close to the adjacent comb and become incorporated with it,

not necessarily - seen loads of Langs out in Lesotho just dumped on old tyres with bare frames (not even starter strips) and they were all drawn perfectly.

2) each new foundationless comb must be placed between two well drawn combs, until it nearly fully drawn

please see my answer above

 

[Amaranth]

Oh well. Perhaps mine are just inclined to be a little bit otherwise.

 

[emoclewbee]

Has anyone tried extracting foundationless that has not had brood in it to reinforce it?

Yes. It is not a problem.

 

[Steve7962]

Home made frames aswell ?

Oh god no, shop bought. I haven’t got enough time in the day to make frames. Though I might have to make time if prices keep rising.

 

[warsaw_hive]

Here’s a foundationless frame from last year, the swarm pulled this comb out in less than a week. This year every single frame, all 10national deep and 7 commercial brood boxes worth will be foundationless. I’ve used the wood that usually holds the foundation to sandwich tongue depressors and 2 kebab skewers in place, will save an absolute fortune plus the bees get the comb they want.
View attachment 39186

I found the kebab skewers caused wonky comb as the bees tended to build around the skewer. You can see that happening in the photo.

 

[user 819]

I find how the combs are built are dependant on timing, placing them and whether at the start or during a good/ heavy flow and they are built out fully quite quickly , during slow trickling flows or at times of dearth then they can be terrible .
A swarm I find will willing build out nice combs either during a flow or need feeding to aid said comb building.