Forgot to put in a frame. now have some "fused" frames (newbie error!)

[bhick]

Hi,

I'm a beginner, just starting off. I've done a course so know the basics and theory, and have just got my first hive started (so still consider myself a bee owner, rather than beekeeper for now!)

I got my first nuc last week and transferred the frames to the brood box in my empty hive. Towards the end of the transfer it started lashing rain, and in my haste trying to close up carefully without killing any bees, I missed out on putting back in one frame. Basically the nuc had 5 frames, so I took out 5 empty frames from the brood chamber for these, and then another to give myself room to maneuver - this is the one I forgot to put back in.

I did my first inspection today since the transfer, and quickly noticed my rookie mistake. The result is a small gap between each frame, that the bees seem to be closing/fusing in spots. I guess with propolis but it kind of looks like comb to me).

In particular, from what I can see, three frames have been fused together in this way by the workers, but anytime I tried to pull them apart or lift them, I was met with a lot of noise and 20-30 workers flying out straight for me (I'm expecting that, but it's in marked contrast to last week when they were really calm and easy going).

I tried closing the gaps between the frames that the bees haven't spread to, but that still leaves too small a gap for the missing frame to slot in. I don't want to force it, as I'm worried I'll damage or kill the queen while doing so.

So, I'm not sure what to do next:
- Is it not a big deal and I can leave it as is? If so, how will I inspect the affected frames (as it seems risky to lift them and I won't be able to see inside anyway), and will this sort of fusing behaviour spread to other frames?
- Should I just go hell for leather, pull the fused ones apart and make the space for the missing frame that way (but just be really careful while doing it). If so, what's the safest/best way?!
-Or is it a tricky enough procedure that I should get someone in to help me out?

Any advice really appreciated!

Thanks in advance,
Brian

 

[REDWOOD]

Bees have built their bee space so trying to close this will crush bees and alter the bee space, I would check the frames, providing there is no BIAS on them remove some comb , you could also swap the frames for new, again no BIAS on them

 

[beesleybees]

best to take frames out one by one and clean up the brace comb that they have built. might be an idea to cage the queen so you dont squish her whilst doing it. Then add back the missing frame

if you dont, youll end up with a nightmare on yer hands and wont be able to inspect frames. sort it now before its gets worse

 

[busybee53]

Welcome to the forum. You did not say how much of the frames are stuck together and if this is in areas where brood is. As you have found if there is a big enough gap bees will fill it with brace comb. Is it possible to remove the sticking out bits with your hive tool to make them back to the usual size so that you can get the other frame in?

Or if there is no brood on the frames you could just replace them.
You could also use a dummy board pushed up to the frames so the bees don't fill up that space with comb too.

It is difficult to say what is best without seeing how bad (or not) the problem is.

No doubt there will be some more advice soon. Good luck.

 

[bhick]

Wow, thanks for the really quick responses!

@busybee53 From what I can see, 3 frames are braced (and thanks for the correct term!) in a few spots - mostly near the top, but also mid-way down. I could reach the top ones with the hive tool all right.

@beesleybees thanks for the clarity, I figured it would be a bigger problem if I left it! Would a matchbox do as the cage?

@redwood when you say "remove some comb", do you mean just ripping it out the affected area? Those frames were from the original nuc, so not sure if they're wired - would that be difficult?

 

[REDWOOD]

Wow, thanks for the really quick responses!

@busybee53 From what I can see, 3 frames are braced (and thanks for the correct term!) in a few spots - mostly near the top, but also mid-way down. I could reach the top ones with the hive tool all right.

@beesleybees thanks for the clarity, I figured it would be a bigger problem if I left it! Would a matchbox do as the cage?

@redwood when you say "remove some comb", do you mean just ripping it out the affected area? Those frames were from the original nuc, so not sure if they're wired - would that be difficult?

NO do not rip it out just remove the extra comb they have built to make up the gap you gave them, do this ASAP before they use it for stores or brood
to remove the extra comb, a hive tool will be to blunt if it is in a large area and can cause a lot of damage, I would use something like a bread knife and shave it off, like you do to remove capping

 

[bhick]

Ah, ok, that makes sense now, thanks.

 

[oliver90owner]

That was your second rookie mistake. Putting them into a full hive with all foundation was the first. Not too bad this time of the year but nights have been chilly. Not best practice, that is all. There will be some on here that will claim it makes no odds; ignore them.

RAB

 

[bhick]

I had been aware of that as an issue, but my nuc arrived with very short notice and I hadn't any dummy frames. My understanding was that it was better to move them to the hive rather than leave them in the nuc. How will I know if chill is a problem?

 

[MuswellMetro]

you may get dead larva at the extremities of the brood area and they turn grey before being removed...can be confused with EFB

make a simple dummy with some correx nailed to a standard frame or 10m thick wood strip ( there must be plenty of correx estate agent signs about...we are in a recession)

 

[richardbees]

Brian

I did exactly this in July - my excuse is I don't have a memory to forget with.

I'm assuming you're on National with Hoffman frames?

A) You can't leave it and B) your first and only priority is not to damage the queen Q

Open the hive and cover the top of the frames in the brood box bb with a square of lightproof cloth then starting at the problem end, gradually move it off to expose each frame one by one - this is because the Q will always move away from the light.

Then gradually work your way through the bb sawing down between the frames with e.g. a breadknife to separate them, giving the bees time to move away.....cut off the excess comb then move on to the next one. Keep using the smoker, don't rush and have another piece of cloth handy to cover the frames behind you once you're half way.

If you're intimidated by the number of flying bees and if you have room, you could move the hive a few feet away while doing this.

richard

 

[ayagerard]

very well said richard

Brian



I'm assuming you're on National with Hoffman frames?

A) You can't leave it and B) your first and only priority is not to damage the queen Q
Open the hive and cover the top of the frames in the brood box bb with a square of lightproof cloth then starting at the problem end, gradually move it off to expose each frame one by one - this is because the Q will always move away from the light.

Then gradually work your way through the bb sawing down between the frames with e.g. a breadknife to separate them, giving the bees time to move away.....cut off the excess comb then move on to the next one. Keep using the smoker, don't rush and have another piece of cloth handy to cover the frames behind you once you're half way.

If you're intimidated by the number of flying bees and if you have room, you could move the hive a few feet away while doing this.

richard

take out a couple off undrawn frames and give yourself room , use the smoker to shift the bees off the frames needing attention,
take your time if you can spot the queen you have no worries
where in ireland are you gerard

 

[bhick]

@MuswellMetro thanks, must re-read the chapter on disease and abnormalities

@richardbees thanks a million for the detail, sounds like a clever approach. I have a commercial with standard frames

@ayagerard thanks. I'm in the wilds of Roscommon, so wish me a dry afternoon for this!

 

[margob99]

I did the same recently; after an inspection I reassembled brood box and brood super, then put on QX, honey super, crownboard and roof. Turned around and what did I see? Dummy board, left out. From the bottom (brood) box of course.

D'oh!

It's gonna have to wait till the next inspection for me to replace it. I just was NOT going to create more havoc by cracking everything open all over again just to get the blasted thing back in.

I expect to face tons of sticky stuff on my return ...

 

[Finman]

.
When combs are fused, separate them with knife.

 

[richardbees]

Brian

Don't know why I mentioned National as it's immaterial, however if you're on standard frames you must also be careful to make sure the ends/spacers are clean and meet properly as the bees will have done some propolising.

One further thought is to do this as late in the day as possible, put the varroa floor fully in and restrict the entrance because some of the comb you saw/cut through may be full of honey which will drip down and make the hive a target for 'robbing'.

good luck, richard

 

[bhick]

Quick update - just back in from doing that, got it sorted and all your advice really really helped, can't thank ye all enough. Thankfully the bracing wasn't too prevalent, only had to cut through three sizable braced pieces, which each had what looked to me to be "fresh" honey in them. Took my time as advised and just got through it. @Richardbees, the cloth was really effective and calmed things down hugely, great tip! - just one bit of advice I'd add on for anyone else reading is to be careful not to catch the end of the hive tool or your glove on the cloth - that got me a couple of times and I dragged the cloth a few inches across the top of the frames - not well received by the bees as you can imagine!

Again, thanks a million for all your advice, could have been left with a right mess without you.

If you're ever in west Roscommon, drinks are on this newbie!

Cheers,
Brian

 

[tonybloke]

glad it worked out well.
I put the first frame out of the brood box across the top of the rest of the frames, works for me instead of a cloth, and I can't transfer 'nasties' from hive to hive with the cloth