First inspection of the season

[Cedar]

Hi all, a few newby questions, we went into winter with three colony’s on double brood boxes, one cedar hive and two poly nationals. As the temp got up to 19 deg C we decided to do a very quick inspections on all three not full inspections.
Q1 Cedar hive this colony is quite small, it has not moved up to the the top brood box as we were expecting them to do. There is three frames of eggs and brood in the the bottom brood box, but also a lot of stores and pollen, we are concerned that there is going to be a shortage of space, so have taken the fondant off in the hope that they will use up stores instead of the fondant and make more space. Would it be adisable to put a super on this early, (bearing in mind the unpredictable weather), and possibly score the sealed stores to encourage them to use it?

Q2 Poly 1 This colony has moved up into the top Brood box, and has 3 frames with eggs & brood.We haven’t looked in the bottom box. As we have concerns re brood space in this colony too we have also removed the fondant. Any advice welcome.

Q3 Poly 2. This is our strongest colony and has also moved into the top Brood box. It has 3 frames of brood & eggs. We haven’t looked in bottom box. We found 2 queen cells in the middle of two different frames, one of which was charged with royal jelly, but we could not see a larvae. We have also removed the fondant from this colony too as we believe there is a possible shortage of brood space. Any advice would be welcome.
Thanks.

 

[richardbees]

Q1: I suggest you remove the top box and put it in store for the moment...and don't put a super on yet.

Sorry, can't help re Polyhives

edited to add that you have a v. unusual situation with those Q cells -= no offence but are you confident you know what you're looking at? I'm bordering Surrey and would be surprised to find a Q cell yet and my colonies are just on a single bb.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Q1 & Q2 What were they like last year on double brood , how many of the 22 frames (i.e. top 11 +bottom 11) had brood in them when at maximum bees

q3 poly, yep, i think it could be honey blocked, when did you feed fondant on a poly?..they use much less stores to maintain the temperature, you may need to extract the stores from some of the brood frames

My ten 14x12 (wood) have only had 500g of Neopol pollen fondant for two weeks, and that's is not to feed sugar but to keep the pollen levels up, heft your hives don't go by date, Their stores are still adequate for the brood level: the crossover for new/old bees is much later this year (/ lack of pollen/weather)

If you can't heft then weigh the hive in October and calculate the reduction over the months

 

[Cedar]

Hi richardbees, thanks for your reply no offence, we do know a Q cell saw enough last year.

 

[Cedar]

Hi muswellmetro,thanks for your reply last year we only double brood boxed over the winter in cedar hives, this is our first winter with poly's, so we only ever had eleven frames of brood max. My main concern is the Q cells? would making more space ie taking out some of the stores aleviate the situation. They have had fondant since February but only taken it intermittently. That goes for all the colonies.

 

[beeno]

Hi richardbees, thanks for your reply no offence, we do know a Q cell saw enough last year.

Hi Cedar,
I am a newbie too. Since you saw enough QC last year I think you are answering your own questions as one often does! Just because you did not see the tiny little larva floating in the Royal Jelly does not mean that it is not there. Action stations!

 

[Polyanwood]

Hi Cedar,
I am a newbie too. Since you saw enough QC last year I think you are answering your own questions as one often does! Just because you did not see the tiny little larva floating in the Royal Jelly does not mean that it is not there. Action stations!

I see you are sure beeno, but sometimes people think they know, but they are muddled up. I agree with Richard.

Often people mix up charged queen cells with:
1.old queen cells
2.queen cups, which are empty or have just an egg in them

Surrey has not been that mild this year. I would be surprised to see queencells.

 

[oliver90owner]

The only scenario for fresh queen cells I can think of, if the box is not full up (and there would normally be some drone brood already emerged) is a failing queen and the workers know it.

 

[jp19sqn]

Could be a supersedure situation if those are charged cells. Monitor but leave alone for a bit if they are in the centre of frames. Might also be an idea to switch the boxes over if bottom box has laying space. Without going into the bottom boxes though you can't really be sure. I have not done a first inspection on mine yet as the weather is still too cold near Leeds; goodness knows what I will find so I sympathise with your predicament. The temps are dropping to 1 or 2 degrees after dawn here so I value the cluster over my curiosity. However I am itching to take a peek, grrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Pete D]

The only scenario for fresh queen cells I can think of, if the box is not full up (and there would normally be some drone brood already emerged) is a failing queen and the workers know it.

I will second that............ these will be superceedure cells as they know the queen isnt any good long term. They are keen to replace her but are probably a touch too early as there wont be many drones about just yet............apart from drone layers !
I had the same on one hive last week, 2 cells with jelly and larvae in, just on one frame, in the middle. They are trying to replace the queen not swarm, as you will know from last year they will normally build more swarm cells and usually off the bottom or sides of frames. No harm in letting them do it.
Pete D

 

[Cedar]

Hi beano, Polyannwood, oliver90owner, jp19sqn. This colony was a prim swarm late last year, so would have changed Q this year, and although there is a small amount of capped drone brood in the other poly and cedar hive I would have thought it is very early for supersedure due a lack of drones to mate with. The Q cells defiantly were new and the girls were in and out of them, it's quite possible there was a small larvae in there.
Yes it has been very wet and cold, but Sunday was warm, if a little breezy.
we kept the inspection as short as possible, hense not looking in the bottom box.
Thanks for replies

 

[Pete D]

Hi Cedar, the bees are just being optimistic re there being drones about, doesnt matter if these cells fail to mate, they will just try again. Yes its early for superceedure, also early for swarming........they have no reason to swarm, what would they gain from it right now, a swarmed hive also needs drones to mate with whats left behind.
Yes we had early swarms last year but its not about the calender, its about conditions right now both in and out of the hive.
What did you do or plan to do with these cells
regards
Pete

 

[Finman]

.
That queen cell...

When the hive swarms, it usually makes 10-15 queen cells.
even small hive makes 10 cells.

2 queen cells sounds that they want to change the queen.

Let the queen cells be there and let the old queen lay.

 

[waverider]

Same here!

One of my colonies that appeared to have struggled in the last month with brood build-up now has 2 QC centre of the central frame.

Will leave them to it.

 

[Finman]

.
Difficult to know what happens. Bees may break the cells but later they may again continue qell rearing.

If queen has problems, it may become slimmer and stop laying.

If the hive is big enoug, you may put an excluder and laying queen on another side and queen cells on another. When virgin starts to lay, they cast away the old lady.

 

[galileo]

After the dreadful weather last summer and the likelihood therefore that many new queens would not have been fully mated, it's probably going to be a bumper year for supercedures. Great, as long as there's loads of drones hanging out in the vicinity on the lookout, and warm, wind-free days for them to get out and do the deed. Alas, not likely for a week or three.

 

[Cedar]

Hi all, thanks for all your relies. I was going to leave them to it, so you have confirmed my thoughts, also the next decent day Ill do a full inspection and remove some of the excess stores to make more space. Or should I leave them alone for the time being?

 

[beeno]

Hi all,
A very interesting scenario. What is more important to the bees the conditions inside the hive or outside? Are they capable of lateral thinking? I am not a million miles from Surrey and I have had pollen going in by the shed load last three days and very mild nights. If I were a bee I would think conditions perfect for jumping.

 

[Pete D]

Hi all,
A very interesting scenario. What is more important to the bees the conditions inside the hive or outside? Are they capable of lateral thinking? I am not a million miles from Surrey and I have had pollen going in by the shed load last three days and very mild nights. If I were a bee I would think conditions perfect for jumping.

By jumping do you mean swarming ? Once they have done this and set up home elsewhere where are all the drones for the newly hatched virgins that will emerged from the queen cells left behind. If condition were ideal for jumping why havent they built a dozen swarm cells, why just 2 in the middle of one frame. I am not sure that 3 days of half decent weather would equate to perfect, I would think they are just glad to be able to get out and start playing catch up, I dont think they will be laterally thinking just yet, they only have 3 frames of brood and probably less than 20,000 bees. Conditions in the hive in my opinion are not right to swarm just yet.........what would both halves of the original colony stand to gain ?
Probably be gone tomorrow !
Pete D

 

[galileo]

Hi all, thanks for all your relies. I was going to leave them to it, so you have confirmed my thoughts, also the next decent day Ill do a full inspection and remove some of the excess stores to make more space. Or should I leave them alone for the time being?

For what it's worth and bearing in mind that I'm relatively new....

Round here, the rule of thumb is to super mid March, so they're ready for the rape. This year, thumbs don't count & we're pretty much a month adrift. One of my 3 main colonies is supered 'cos they've got a lot of Buckfast in them and are racing away, but the 2 EBB colonies are only just starting to build up.

All that serves as a caveat to what follows, which will largely depend on your weather and colony, but if it looks like they're ready for more space when you get in there, and it's warm enough for the number of bees you have to keep brood cosy, supering them might be the way to go. They'll move stores up to make space for Doris to lay in, if they need to, and giving house bees work to do and the space to do it in, tends to reduce their desire to swarm early.

Cheers