first grafting attempt failed

[sparklysally]

I did my first attempt at grafting 10 days ago. At the end of day 5 after grafting, I had five well-attended, capped queen cells. Today, on day 10 after grafting, I went to my out-apiary and filled up the apideas with bees, then came to my back garden hives to get the grafting frame, and was gutted to see that the queen cells have now apparently been abandoned, with brace comb throughout.

I am certain that I used the correct-aged larvae (egg-sized and hadn't yet formed the c-shape). The hive is a strong, double-brood hive. I had the grafting frame in the top BB, QE below, and queen in the bottom BB. Had a frame of pollen and a frame of young larvae either side of the graft frame.

What did I do wrong?
Thanks

(pictures are of the frame at day 5 and day 10, and one of the abandoned queen larvae that I cut out of the brace comb).

 

[warsaw_hive]

You did better than me at my first attempt at grafting! When there is a strong flow on then they can almost entomb the cells in comb. Just cut the comb around the silhouette of the cell and they are fine. Roger Patterson has a BIBBA video showing how to do this. I think it is advised to have some empty frames or fresh foundation for the bees to build on instead.

 

[SWEET]

Spacing is off, try with cups next to each other and they won't built comb. Also make sure there is plenty of space in the hive and there will be no issues regards flow etc. Using a strong hive as a starter/finisher can also cause the issues you're seeing

 

[warsaw_hive]

Roger Patterson has a BIBBA video showing how to do this.

Sadly can't find this now, but you just take a sharp knife to the comb leaving a few millimetres around the cocoon.

 

[sparklysally]

Thank you for your replies.
I will try again at the weekend. This time I'll put a super of foundation above the top brood box, and also put the cups much closer together. Will let you know how it goes!
Unfortunately I no longer have the entombed QCs so can't try cutting them out, but will bear this in mind if it does happen again.

 

[user 819]

I used the Ben Harden method and split the bb with adummy board , treat the split part like a nuc with 4 frames .

 

[sparklysally]

I used the Ben Harden method and split the bb with adummy board , treat the split part like a nuc with 4 frames .

I haven't really read up on the Ben Harden method yet - does it always involve splitting the BB with a dummy? And do your QCs generally get left intact until day 10 after grafting? Thanks

 

[NiallD]

Those cells are probably not ''abandoned'' , just immersed in comb. It happens when there's a flow on . Cut them back with a sharp knife. The queen you show is fully formed and just a couple of days from emerging. Use nicot cups and put on the roller cages when they're capped both to prevent such an outcome and also to retain the virgin should she emerge sooner than expected or before you can get organised. Just try again, you haven't really lost anything and gained a lot of experience. It's a learning curve. I use a double b/b hive and Cloake board.

 

[sparklysally]

Those cells are probably not ''abandoned'' , just immersed in comb. It happens when there's a flow on . Cut them back with a sharp knife. The queen you show is fully formed and just a couple of days from emerging. Use nicot cups and put on the roller cages when they're capped both to prevent such an outcome and also to retain the virgin should she emerge sooner than expected or before you can get organised. Just try again, you haven't really lost anything and gained a lot of experience. It's a learning curve. I use a double b/b hive and Cloake board.

Thank you!

Yes, I realised afterwards that they were at the correct developmental stage for their age. Oh well, lesson learnt.

I am trying again tomorrow with the JZBZ cups that I already have, but am going to look into getting ones that fit to cages for the next time - very good idea. I might try a bit of protective tin foil wrapped around the capped QCs this next time, until I get a better design of cup such as the ones you suggested?

Hope it works this time - I wish I'd started to take an interest in queen-rearing earlier in the year.

 

[user 819]

Splitting with a dummy allows the nurse bees and house bees who are ripening honey to keep seperate, once sealed or at 14 days I use the roller cages to protect the cells and to retain the VQ's.

 

[sparklysally]

Splitting with a dummy allows the nurse bees and house bees who are ripening honey to keep seperate, once sealed or at 14 days I use the roller cages to protect the cells and to retain the VQ's.

That's very interesting - thank you. Will definitely look more into this.

 

[user 819]

I should rephrase the part about the dummy board seperating the bees , it will help in keeping them seperated.
If one is utilising one frame for the Q rearing then all one need is a frame or two young brood so nurse bees are always present and a good frame of stores of pollen and honey.
My Q frame is a double bar BS deep national frame that can hold approx. 14 - 16 cell holders. I use the NB Cupkit cell holders with capped rollers.

 

[user 819]

I have never had them encased in wax though, typically if rearing I do so in early May - June if the conditions look good. A nice quite strong double brood colony on a super the brood box rearer on top with extra room for nectar/honey.
My very first effort many years ago was about a 25% success, I grafted approx. 12 cells. Typically if I rear them I'm only after two or three so offer spare VQ's locally for a few quid.

 

[Andy]

I have never had them encased in wax though, typically if rearing I do so in early May - June if the conditions look good. A nice quite strong double brood colony on a super the brood box rearer on top with extra room for nectar/honey.
My very first effort many years ago was about a 25% success, I grafted approx. 12 cells. Typically if I rear them I'm only after two or three so offer spare VQ's locally for a few quid.

So am I right that starting from the bottom, you have brood box. super, brood box. Then in the top box you are splitting with a dummy board and making up the ben harden? Or is it BB,BB (with ben harden and dummy board) supers?

I had some success earlier this year with doing a Demaree. In the top box I introduced my grafted queens near pollen stores and brood. I was hoping to leave one cell in there to make a new queen. However the weather got colder and I hadn't put any new brood higher up so the hatched queen got abandoned. I killed most of those queens while dropping them while trying to glue them to my not patented wax cup holder system I dropped a load on the floor Once the brood was all capped the nurse bees went back down. The queen had absconded by the time I noticed.

 

[drex]

In my very poor attempts at queen rearing by grafting in the past, I have found that the most important thing is to have the colony rammed with bees, with plenty of nurses in the rearing box. I still graft but also use simpler methods. This year I got more than enough queens using Demarees

 

[Andy]

In my very poor attempts at queen rearing by grafting in the past, I have found that the most important thing is to have the colony rammed with bees, with plenty of nurses in the rearing box. I still graft but also use simpler methods. This year I got more than enough queens using Demarees

Weirdly from all my Demarees I didn’t have a single cell raised from the frames. That was with two supers below and the top was packed with nurse bees.

 

[user 819]

So am I right that starting from the bottom, you have brood box. super, brood box. Then in the top box you are splitting with a dummy board and making up the ben harden? Or is it BB,BB (with ben harden and dummy board) supers?

I had some success earlier this year with doing a Demaree. In the top box I introduced my grafted queens near pollen stores and brood. I was hoping to leave one cell in there to make a new queen. However the weather got colder and I hadn't put any new brood higher up so the hatched queen got abandoned. I killed most of those queens while dropping them while trying to glue them to my not patented wax cup holder system I dropped a load on the floor Once the brood was all capped the nurse bees went back down. The queen had absconded by the time I noticed.

I Qu rear on a strong colony , double brood , supers up to three and then Q-Rearing brood.
Qu in bottom is clipped and Qu - rearing brood on top for easier management. I check the double brood a day before Qu rearing cells are capped so I know the status of affairs below.

One can't always win , if the bees have something different in mind.
If cells don't take of they are torn down so be it, one just has to have another go.

 

[drex]

Weirdly from all my Demarees I didn’t have a single cell raised from the frames. That was with two supers below and the top was packed with nurse bees.

Were they really strong enough ( on point of swarm preps) to Demaree . ? Never had a failure to produce QC when at that point

 

[Andy]

Were they really strong enough ( on point of swarm preps) to Demaree . ? Never had a failure to produce QC when at that point

Maybe that is why. Not sure. The supers and top had a lot of bees but not the bottom brood box. I was doing it as a preemptive strike and also to let me lob in a few queen grafts.

 

[user 819]

The main BB needs to be strong as one is splitting brood/nurse bees to look after two boxes albeit the top one a little less populated with brood. One needs sealed brood up top to keep the bees there , how much sealed one puts up there is dependant on colony strength but two or three good frames won't be an issue along with at least one stores of pollen/honey and one is then creating Q laying room below as well.