Filipe Salbany- Somerset Beekeepers' Association online event

[JamezF]

My stuff is usually on the floor from the night before.

And I thought it was teenagers who invented the floordrobe.

James

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

Either he has no idea of genetics and how bees mate , or he is pulling your plonker. Because if there are incoming bees, his bees will mate with other drones. Now I assume he knows how bees mate, so he is basically - confusing the issue, waffling and being disingenuous#. If he does not know how bees mate - he is not worth listening to.

# like a certain political leader.

Philipe is not the first to notice that native bees have a tendency to mate with native bees, if not exclusively, at least to a large extent. This may explain how populations of native bees have survived despite endless imports of foreign sub-species. The native drone certainly appears dominant in our environment hence the need to keep replacing imported stock with more imported stock if that is what you want.
Unfortunately because it has probably not been proven scientifically, many on this forum dismiss it as not true, as they do with a lot of other things that the scientists have not proved yet. Many beekeepers have noticed that near native bees are the ones that usually survive in a feral situation, so it is not surprising that a near native population appears to have survived or developed in this habitat.
But it can't be true as science has not told us it is!

 

[Ian123]

Philipe is not the first to notice that native bees have a tendency to mate with native bees, if not exclusively, at least to a large extent. This may explain how populations of native bees have survived despite endless imports of foreign sub-species. The native drone certainly appears dominant in our environment hence the need to keep replacing imported stock with more imported stock if that is what you want.
Unfortunately because it has probably not been proven scientifically, many on this forum dismiss it as not true, as they do with a lot of other things that the scientists have not proved yet. Many beekeepers have noticed that near native bees are the ones that usually survive in a feral situation, so it is not surprising that a near native population appears to have survived or developed in this habitat.
But it can't be true as science has not told us it is!

Oooh dear lord pls………………

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This may explain how populations of native bees have survived despite endless imports of foreign sub-species.

So no point in banning imports then
Glad you agree

 

[JamezF]

Oooh dear lord pls………………

Well, quite. I've written and deleted several attempts at replying to the respondent's post and not yet found a form of words that I think will be meaningful to them. Perhaps the reason why the scientific method is important is so blatantly obvious to me that I don't know where to start with someone who doesn't see that.

So by way of ducking the issue, as a start I'd recommend reading Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science". Perhaps that will go some way to explaining why some of us don't accept as certain any conclusions based on claimed evidence that hasn't been clearly demonstrated to be reliable.

James

 

[madasafish]

Oooh dear lord pls………………

Philipe is not the first to notice that native bees have a tendency to mate with native bees, if not exclusively, at least to a large extent. This may explain how populations of native bees have survived despite endless imports of foreign sub-species. The native drone certainly appears dominant in our environment hence the need to keep replacing imported stock with more imported stock if that is what you want.
Unfortunately because it has probably not been proven scientifically, many on this forum dismiss it as not true, as they do with a lot of other things that the scientists have not proved yet. Many beekeepers have noticed that near native bees are the ones that usually survive in a feral situation, so it is not surprising that a near native population appears to have survived or developed in this habitat.
But it can't be true as science has not told us it is!

So native bees are doing well and will predominate .
Why then worry about imports?

You cannot argue logically for both.

 

[Mint Bee]

Well, quite. I've written and deleted several attempts at replying to the respondent's post and not yet found a form of words that I think will be meaningful to them. Perhaps the reason why the scientific method is important is so blatantly obvious to me that I don't know where to start with someone who doesn't see that.

So by way of ducking the issue, as a start I'd recommend reading Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science". Perhaps that will go some way to explaining why some of us don't accept as certain any conclusions based on claimed evidence that hasn't been clearly demonstrated to be reliable.

James

James,
not sure if you are aware, but Jo is president of BIBBA. any view point or science that goes again that organisations objective is usually ignored or dismissed. Yet when they have science on their side, to support the objectives, it is embraced wholeheartedly. In my opinion.

Not sure you will ever find the words that are meaningful on this topic to some. As Mad and Emyr have commented, you cant have it both ways and maintain other people's respect with the argument. probably best not to engage on this one

 

[Beesnaturally]

Well he can’t cherry pick questions and be taken seriously. I hope there is an opportunity to put some sensible and searching ones to him

I can think of any number of questions I wouldn't bother replying to. That's not cherry picking, it's making good use of limited time.

 

[Ian123]

James,
not sure if you are aware, but Jo is president of BIBBA.

And just demonstrated convincingly why said organisation has achieved very little over the years

 

[Beesnaturally]

It's mot

So native bees are doing well and will predominate .
Why then worry about imports?

You cannot argue logically for both.

It's not binary situation, a this-or-that with no in-between.

The more bees that lack resistance against varroa are imported, the harder it is for all non-medicated bees to survive and thrive.

Do we really want to be eliminating the genetic diversity that is held in wild living UK bees?

In these days of concern for genetic diversity, it is that which is the illogical part.

This is a problem stemming from a government department that allows 'stakeholders' to make the rules. Moneymaking is well represented, sustainability has no voice.

 

[madasafish]

It's mot

It's not binary situation, a this-or-that with no in-between.

The more bees that lack resistance against varroa are imported, the harder it is for all non-medicated bees to survive and thrive.

Do we really want to be eliminating the genetic diversity that is held in wild living UK bees?

In these days of concern for genetic diversity, it is that which is the illogical part.

This is a problem stemming from a government department that allows 'stakeholders' to make the rules. Moneymaking is well represented, sustainability has no voice.

"The more bees that lack resistance against varroa are imported"

We don't import bees from New Zealand or the Isle of Man or Colonsay as far as I know.
Perhaps you have specific knowledge of other places without varroa. By now, bees with varroa are likely to be partially resistant. I understand Russian bees are more resistant - but rubbish.

 

[Antipodes]

"The more bees that lack resistance against varroa are imported"

We don't import bees from New Zealand or the Isle of Man or Colonsay as far as I know.
Perhaps you have specific knowledge of other places without varroa. By now, bees with varroa are likely to be partially resistant. I understand Russian bees are more resistant - but rubbish.

They have varroa in NZ.

 

[Beesnaturally]

"The more bees that lack resistance against varroa are imported"

We don't import bees from New Zealand or the Isle of Man or Colonsay as far as I know.
Perhaps you have specific knowledge of other places without varroa. By now, bees with varroa are likely to be partially resistant. I understand Russian bees are more resistant - but rubbish.

I was pointing out that it isn't illogical to understand there are resistant bees in the UK, and that continuing imports are hampering the spread of resistance.

It's my understanding that every hive headed by an imported queen needs treatment. Perhaps you can tell me I'm wrong about that.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was pointing out that it isn't illogical to understand there are resistant bees in the UK, and that continuing imports are hampering the spread of resistance.

But maybe the the imported bees will actually reinforce the resistance of our bees. So your 'logic' fails unless you have data to prove otherwise

 

[Beesnaturally]

But maybe the the imported bees will actually reinforce the resistance of our bees. So your 'logic' fails unless you have data to prove otherwise

There are more maybes than can be counted.

If - if... anybody is importing resistant bees at scale, and if - if... their buyers are _not_ removing any such resistance by making increase in the vicinity of unresistant bees, then you might have a point.

But I haven't heard of anyone doing that.

It is much more the case, recognised by most of the scientific studies, and obvious to anyone with a grip on the underlying principal of breeding and/natural selection, that we are flooded with unresistant genetics, and that to the extent they contribute to wild/'survivor', or successful non-treating bee populations, they tend to undermine resistance.

It's a case of: this is understood in the scientific community. It's beekeepers who don't understand it, and it is in the interest of 'the stakeholders' to deny it.

https://peerj.com/articles/3956/

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There are more maybes than can be counted.

If - if

sound like another one of your unsubstantiated or corroborated 'theories'

 

[Boston Bees]

It's a case of: this is understood in the scientific community. It's beekeepers who don't understand it, and it is in the interest of 'the stakeholders' to deny it.

https://peerj.com/articles/3956/

"Reduced [mite] reproductive success in surviving Norwegian and Swedish colonies is not likely due to a more sensitive grooming threshold nor a higher level of brood removal (VSH). Neither of the tested traits seem to play a major role in local colony survival"

The paper offers the slightly contradictory conclusions that:

a) the secret is to have mites that reproduce at a low rate (i.e. it's the mites that matter, not the bees)

but also

b) rather than VSH or grooming, " different adult behaviours are likely sufficient to explain reduced V. destructor reproductive success and ultimately colony survival. These behaviours need to be identified."

So, not grooming, and not uncapping, but some unidentified attribute. This seems tenuous.

Perhaps natural selection in mites is what is really going on here, not natural selection in bees.

Of maybe it's just an inconclusive study.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Perhaps natural selection in mites is what is really going on here, not natural selection in bees. In which case, imports wouldn't do any harm.

And as we see these alleged 'success stories' of varroa resistant bees all over the world
Maybe importation should be encouraged

 

[Into the lions den]

It is much more the case, recognised by most of the scientific studies, and obvious to anyone with a grip on the underlying principal of breeding and/natural selection, that we are flooded with unresistant genetics, and that to the extent they contribute to wild/'survivor', or successful non-treating bee populations, they tend to undermine resistance.
https://peerj.com/articles/3956/

Citations please to justify that remark. It is deeply insulting to the very fine and careful breeders out there who suffer from the dreadful stigma of *not being British*

One of the main suppliers into the UK in N Italy turns out 90000 VSH queens and queen cells per season to northern European markets from France as far up as Finland...and they have abundant testing to demonstrate their worth in combatting both varroa and brood diseases........but perhaps you are able to debunk this? All bred from northern stock for northern markets...including a line F25 that was sourced from US and tested very well in the programme.

Warning before firing back. I know the man personally and we have participated in their work...so unless you have a better weapon than mere supposition or 'by repute' type information don't bother.

These guys are light years ahead of us...and their bees work extremely well here.

Anyone who sells poor bees into the country does not do so for long!

 

[Ian123]

Murray you really should have timed your Kent trip with more care….Evidently if you had gone in the summer you and jolanta could have skipped through the orchards hand in hand with gay abandon, simply gathering varroa resistant bees festooning the low hung bows! Perhaps you should inform those dastardly foreign breeders their work is in vain