Filipe Salbany- Somerset Beekeepers' Association online event

[Beesnaturally]

someone is trying to wriggle out of answering his question!!

I'd say good try, but that is really amateurish.

What question would that be?

 

[Wilco]

If this mechanism is the one you want to believe is working, that's fine. My point is just that there's no evidence for it in this study, and the authors themselves didn't even suggest it. They even go as far as to specifically rule out VSH as a contributory factor, and if what you are describing isn't VSH, I don't know what is.

I'm just a bit surprised that you have picked a study to go "ahah - look - VSH!", when the authors quite clearly say "no, not VSH, sorry"

I'm not sure whether the authors have realised this but lack of difference in amount of uncapping doesn't mean there isn't a difference in uncapping (!). Whilst I am loathe to facilitate unevidenced musings, there is a potential mechanism (FAO @Beesnaturally).

It is possible (but not observed) that the treated vs untreated may have similar levels of uncapping but the nature of the uncapping varies between the two groups. For example if treated colonies uncap anything but the untreated only uncap cells with higher numvers of mites, this would select for less fecund mites. It is possible that the overall uncapping per colony is similar, just better discrimination with untreated.

As stated, this is NOT something which has been documented but it gives a conceivable mechanism.

This does not mean it is occurring and the comments about study size are still as valid.

 

[Wilco]

I'd say good try, but that is really amateurish.

What question would that be?

@Into the lions den asked you twice, the second time being paragraph 3 of post #175 in this thread:

''I want a citation for your claim that the UK is importing large number of (sic) unresistant queens.''

Can you provide such a citation?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Yep....just like the old days.

Cite your sources about the 'unresistant' queens...you asserted.....I challenged...it YOU who needs to provide the answers. Ms Lusby did this all the time...never gave straight answers.

What is this, a concerted attempt to muddy the waters, or just conversational incompetence?

Have you asked me a question, or are you talking about s question somebody else has asked?

It has been claimed that there are breeders sending thousands of 'good' bees into the country.

I'm asking whether these 'good' bees are varroa-proof.

I've made the prediction that they won't be, and that you won't admit it, but will do you best to distract from the question.

Right on all counts I think.

All of which is a distraction from the conversation I'm trying to have about a resistance mechanism with Boston Bees, who knows what the obvious conclusion is, and is obviously terrified of getting there.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm not sure whether the authors have realised this but lack of difference in amount of uncapping doesn't mean there isn't a difference in uncapping (!). Whilst I am loathe to facilitate unevidenced musings, there is a potential mechanism (FAO @Beesnaturally).

It is possible (but not observed) that the treated vs untreated may have similar levels of uncapping but the nature of the uncapping varies between the two groups. For example if treated colonies uncap anything but the untreated only uncap cells with higher numvers of mites, this would select for less fecund mites. It is possible that the overall uncapping per colony is similar, just better discrimination with untreated.

As stated, this is NOT something which has been documented but it gives a conceivable mechanism.

This does not mean it is occurring and the comments about study size are still as valid.

Thank you Wilco

This, Boston Bees and your assistants in evasion, is the easy answer. It is what I have characterised, twice within the last week, as the bees 'breeding' less fecund strains if mites.

And less fecund mite behaviour - by this mechanism, or another, or a combination - is very much observed.

And as my spreadsheet illustration shows, and as Boston Bees observes, the lowered 'r' (reproduction rate) number is an immensely effective mechanism. It entirely prevents 'booming' mite numbers, allowing other mechanisms like allogrooming to reduce varroa to a slight nuisance, instead of a lethal parasite.

And... This is precisely what evolutionary theory predicts, and is why many papers are observing that the number one problem is the apiary practice of systematic treatment.

And ... If anyone doesn't understand this still, my strong suggestion is stop trying.

Wilco, you may be wrong, or only partially right about this specific mechanism being undocumented. Perhaps we'll find that out soon, although the problem of journal paywalls makes certainty impossible.

God you lot make hard work of this.

 

[Erichalfbee]

God you lot make hard work of this.

Now that must be the quote of the month

 

[Into the lions den]

Read the following...I have quoted you already. Stop ignoring that the initial agent provocateur here was your posts about the queens that come here, the vast majority from truly excellent breeders. I challenged your statement...and your response is to try to turn the tables...suspect you think you are smarter than the rest of us but you are on seriously shaky ground.

Just to refresh your memory
............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
It is much more the case, recognised by most of the scientific studies, and obvious to anyone with a grip on the underlying principal of breeding and/natural selection, that we are flooded with unresistant genetics, and that to the extent they contribute to wild/'survivor', or successful non-treating bee populations, they tend to undermine resistance.
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Dont make an assertion then challenge the person who questions it....silly uni debating society facile tactic.

Re read your own posts 130 133 and 135. Then come back with a sensible answer and less of your 'deliberately irritating sidestepping.

 

[Into the lions den]

Going off to have some supper after working late...be back soon.

In the words of Bette Davis in a very old film....'its going to be a bumpy night'.

One of my old associates on Bee-L had a tagline when dealing with such issues. 'Never mud wrestle with a pig. You cant win, and besides, the pig enjoys it!'

 

[Beesnaturally]

Just to refresh your memory
.......................................................................................................
It is much more the case, recognised by most of the scientific studies, and obvious to anyone with a grip on the underlying principal of breeding and/natural selection, that we are flooded with unresistant genetics, and that to the extent they contribute to wild/'survivor', or successful non-treating bee populations, they tend to undermine resistance.
..............................................................

[/QUOTE]

Ok, thanks.

Just what part of that do you find contentious?
And,
What would it take to make you change your mind?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Going off to have some supper after working late...be back soon.

In the words of Bette Davis in a very old film....'its going to be a bumpy night'.

One of my old associates on Bee-L had a tagline when dealing with such issues. 'Never mud wrestle with a pig. You cant win, and besides, the pig enjoys it!'

There's another good 'un:

'Trying to argue with them is like playing chess with a pigeon. They knock over the pieces, crap on the board, then strut around thinking they won.'

Constructive conversation needs care.

A pack of six aggressive punters trying to knock one rational argument off course because they don't like where it leads is the norm, sadly.

 

[Into the lions den]

Just to refresh your memory
.......................................................................................................
It is much more the case, recognised by most of the scientific studies, and obvious to anyone with a grip on the underlying principal of breeding and/natural selection, that we are flooded with unresistant genetics, and that to the extent they contribute to wild/'survivor', or successful non-treating bee populations, they tend to undermine resistance.
..............................................................

Ok, thanks.

Just what part of that do you find contentious?
And,
What would it take to make you change your mind?
[/QUOTE]

post 189 and 190. More of the same. Answer a question with a question.....

Stop, playing intellectual games with us and answer the question. If you cannot and are making a groundless slur on good beekeepers what kind of response do you expect. If you think massaging your own ego and sense of moral superiority cuts any ice with good practical beekeepers think again...you aint as smart as you think you are.

and as for the tripe at the end of post 190. LOL dont like your reception so play the victim? YOU...yes YOU..made offensive assertions. Justify. Dont call folk on here 'aggressive punters'. Its pretty pathetic...poke folk with a stick and complain if they react.

Ever thought of going into politics? Get asked the same question numerous times and avoid answering by trying to turn the intellectual tables on people........

Deliberate ignoring of the highlighted part in the earlier quotes and the collective impressions you (quite intentioanlly) gave in the selection of earlier posts.....and then pretend you don't know what the question is?

 

[Into the lions den]

LOL...and all this while also writing a narrative for Rowse. The stimulation is making my narrative more colourful...which is a good thing. For me at least...was feeling a bit stale earlier tonight. 8 hrs of frame waxing on a Sunday does not exactly get the grey matter going.

 

[Into the lions den]

Moderators.........if this is getting a bit rich please just delete.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Ok, thanks.

Just what part of that do you find contentious?
And,
What would it take to make you change your mind?

(ITLD): post 189 and 190. More of the same. Answer a question with a question.....

Stop, playing intellectual games with us and answer the question.

(BN)

What I'm trying to do, and what you lot are trying to stop me doing, is talk about the mechanisms by which bees attain resistance through natural selection.

It seems to me that to do that I first have to improve the general understanding here of what natural selection is, how it works. Both generally and in the application to honeybees.

I've given you the opportunity to help with that, and you've not only declined, but joined the pack getting in the way.

If and when we've achieved a measure of understanding of the key underpinning of all this, we'll be able to move forward.

I don't suppose you needed me to point that out. I fully expect you to continue to run with the pack and carry on blocking.

 

[Wilco]

(ITLD): post 189 and 190. More of the same. Answer a question with a question.....

Stop, playing intellectual games with us and answer the question.

(BN)

What I'm trying to do, and what you lot are trying to stop me doing, is talk about the mechanisms by which bees attain resistance through natural selection.

It seems to me that to do that I first have to improve the general understanding here of what natural selection is, how it works. Both generally and in the application to honeybees.

I've given you the opportunity to help with that, and you've not only declined, but joined the pack getting in the way.

If and when we've achieved a measure of understanding of the key underpinning of all this, we'll be able to move forward.

I don't suppose you needed me to point that out. I fully expect you to continue to run with the pack and carry on blocking.

@Beesnaturally any chance you have links to the papers you mentioned that say the UK is being flooded with unresistant genetics? If so please link them as I'd like to take a look.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I waited to give Beesnaturally a chance to supply us with concrete evidence of the U.K. being flooded with unresistant bees. He is not going to come up with any. There’s simply no evidence.
Read Murray’s last posts
This thread has run it’s course
If anybody is still interested in being educated by BN I suggest you take it up by PM.