Feeding honey back to the bees

[thedozzer]

When we take of the supers at the end of august, we were thinking that any that is not capped or over 20% will be the bees?

But not sure if you can use a miller style feeder for feeding it back to them?
and what are the pros & cons of giving them honey back to use over winter?

i know honey is worth more than sugar syrup but we are happy to let them keep some of the labours of their work and sure its better for them, and we don't have time/space/money to faff about with dehumidifiers.

 

[bingevader]

If you could just leave the uncapped frames, that would be simpler.
I think the only proviso to feeding it back would be that it went to the hive it came from.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I put the uncapped frames in a super and nadir it. A strong colony can empty a whole super in a matter of days if they have room in the brood.
Then you can either leave the shallow box or take it away. I leave mine over winter.

 

[madasafish]

I put the uncapped frames in a super and nadir it. A strong colony can empty a whole super in a matter of days if they have room in the brood.
Then you can either leave the shallow box or take it away. I leave mine over winter.

+1

Lessesns the effect of winter gales...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I put the uncapped frames in a super and nadir it. A strong colony can empty a whole super in a matter of days if they have room in the brood.
Then you can either leave the shallow box or take it away. I leave mine over winter.

It also saves you faffing around with extracting it and keeping it apart from the 'good' honey

 

[thedozzer]

Thanks for the consensus that nadiring a super may be the best way, lifting a full 14x12 should be fun, one colony has 2 full frames of stores and the frames have some weight on their own!!

the supers are colour coded to the hives they belong to (yes i know how quaint, it wont last ) so we will try and give them their own honey back, but one is the daughter of the other and we are sure we get some drifting as they are only a few feet apart.

When spring comes how do you make sure that HM doesn't start laying in the super, or is it just pot luck?

 

[Erichalfbee]

When spring comes how do you make sure that HM doesn't start laying in the super, or is it just pot luck?

I run 14x12 and mine never have. If the queen dies get down there pop the super on top and put a QX under it

 

[thedozzer]

I run 14x12 and mine never have. If the queen dies get down there pop the super on top and put a QX under it

Thanks D, i gather we could give them the super for a few weeks or more, and when we come to do the Apivar, we could see if they have moved the stores up in to the brood box, and remove as we will be going back to my closed down entrances for the winter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks for the consensus that nadiring a super may be the best way, lifting a full 14x12 should be fun, one colony has 2 full frames of stores and the frames have some weight on their own!!

the supers are colour coded to the hives they belong to (yes i know how quaint, it wont last ) so we will try and give them their own honey back, but one is the daughter of the other and we are sure we get some drifting as they are only a few feet apart.

When spring comes how do you make sure that HM doesn't start laying in the super, or is it just pot luck?

Remove it in February/early March mot much chance of the queen having laid up much of the brood area in that time but the bees are active enough not to get chilled when you disturb them

 

[thedozzer]

Remove it in February/early March mot much chance of the queen having laid up much of the brood area in that time but the bees are active enough not to get chilled when you disturb them

Thanks JB, that makes sense, all this musical boxes is new territory for us, we just had the one colony to get through winter end of last year and they were still building up.

Every day something new to learn

 

[Teebeeaitch]

I think your approach of leaving them what is theirs should be applauded. There seems to be a general fashion these days of loading them with sugar as it makes no difference and is cheap. Years ago people said I am only feeding sugar in emergencies. Then they said I am only feeding sugar to new swarms. Then it was to stimulate in spring. Then it was because the summer weather was bad. Now it seems to be all year round as an insurance policy. I don’t like it but that’s where we seem to be. Maybe I am swimming against the tide but nice to hear someone else is on the same hymn sheet.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think your approach of leaving them what is theirs should be applauded. There seems to be a general fashion these days of loading them with sugar as it makes no difference and is cheap. Years ago people said I am only feeding sugar in emergencies. Then they said I am only feeding sugar to new swarms. Then it was to stimulate in spring. Then it was because the summer weather was bad. Now it seems to be all year round as an insurance policy. I don’t like it but that’s where we seem to be. Maybe I am swimming against the tide but nice to hear someone else is on the same hymn sheet.

Well by the time I get my supers off the bees are putting honey in the brood box and there are invariably frames to nadir but they get get Invert if they need it. There is no way I am leaving a super of honey on top of a 14x12

 

[Walrus]

I think your approach of leaving them what is theirs should be applauded... Maybe I am swimming against the tide but nice to hear someone else is on the same hymn sheet.

It seems perfectly logical that bees will get through winter better with their own honey rather than sugar syrup, but strangely that is not always the case. Some types of honey (like heather honey, for example) have much higher levels of disaccharides and oligosaccharides in them. Heather honey has high levels of isomaltose. For colonies that are going to be confined in the hive for long periods without a cleansing flight this can cause problems, whereas taking the honey and feeding with pure sucrose would actually make it easier for the bees (less poo to hold in).

From what I have read, if you do have to feed bees to ensure they have enough for winter, sucrose is far better than any of the alternatives, and cheaper.

 

[bingevader]

That's interesting and a bit counter intuitive seeing as they've survived for millennia without our interference.
Do you have a paper or reference that we could read for further details please?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It seems perfectly logical that bees will get through winter better with their own honey rather than sugar syrup, but strangely that is not always the case. Some types of honey (like heather honey, for example) have much higher levels of disaccharides and oligosaccharides in them. Heather honey has high levels of isomaltose. For colonies that are going to be confined in the hive for long periods without a cleansing flight this can cause problems, whereas taking the honey and feeding with pure sucrose would actually make it easier for the bees (less poo to hold in).

From what I have read, if you do have to feed bees to ensure they have enough for winter, sucrose is far better than any of the alternatives, and cheaper.

Careful - the havers of bees will be up in arms at that post.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's interesting and a bit counter intuitive seeing as they've survived for millennia without our interference.
Do you have a paper or reference that we could read for further details please?

I think it’s important only where bees are confined by the weather for long winters. Maybe the areas where such winters would preclude their existence in the first place? Theres a cold climate Facebook beekeeping group and they go through all sorts of shenanigans to get their bees through winter

 

[Walrus]

That's interesting and a bit counter intuitive seeing as they've survived for millennia without our interference.
Do you have a paper or reference that we could read for further details please?

I agree, although I suspect that many of the bees we keep now wouldn't last long without our "interference". I don't think heather honey is going to kill bees by the way! It's just that if it leads to a build up of excrement in the bee abdomen and if they can't get a cleansing flight then it's a problem.

I am going to be writing about honey sugars and over wintering so I'm just doing a bit of research now. I don't know of research papers that specifically look at this rare situation (long confinement over winter with stores of calluna honey vs. stores of sugar syrup) but there is good honey analysis info out there. The one with the most complex sugars is honeydew.

ITLD is somebody who has kept bees for 50+ years and has heather as his main crop...maybe when things quieten down he'll visit here and share his experience.

 

[pargyle]

I think it’s important only where bees are confined by the weather for long winters. Maybe the areas where such winters would preclude their existence in the first place? Theres a cold climate Facebook beekeeping group and they go through all sorts of shenanigans to get their bees through winter

Down here on the Costa del Fareham I see my bees flying throughout the winter .. there are not many days that the temperatures where I am are consistently near freezing. The only things that seems to confine them is continual rain, high winds and sub zero temperatures - if the weather is clement ....and it often is down here .. they are out and about collecting water and defecation flights. The benefits of local acclimatised stock are sometimes underestimated.

I'm on poly 14 x 12 and generally find that they fill the boxes with Ivy honey ..I top up with syrup if they need it but I must admit that with well insulated boxes there is often a frame or two of stores left in spring - the time to watch is if we have bad weather early in spring as once they start brooding the stores can go very quickly and be ready with the fondant.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I agree, although I suspect that many of the bees we keep now wouldn't last long without our "interference".

I don't think heather honey is going to kill bees by the way! .

During the war my grandfather would extract the summer honey, keep the bees' sugar ration for the family and leave the heather on for the bees as it was such a PITA to extract

 

[Erichalfbee]

Down here on the Costa del Fareham I see my bees flying throughout the winter .. there are not many days that the temperatures where I am are consistently near freezing. The only things that seems to confine them is continual rain, high winds and sub zero temperatures - if the weather is clement ....and it often is down here .. they are out and about collecting water and defecation flights. The benefits of local acclimatised stock are sometimes underestimated.

I'm on poly 14 x 12 and generally find that they fill the boxes with Ivy honey ..I top up with syrup if they need it but I must admit that with well insulated boxes there is often a frame or two of stores left in spring - the time to watch is if we have bad weather early in spring as once they start brooding the stores can go very quickly and be ready with the fondant.

I’m a great fan of ivy stores.
My bees have always done well on it. A lot of beekeepers say the bees can’t use it. Makes you wonder why they collect it, then