Feed hole. To cover or not?

[MandF]

.

Even if days temps are 30 C like last summer, hive is too cool at night. Night temps do near 10C before sunrise.

.

Actually it has been 15C here in london overnight, but I digress. So, assume the hive drops to 10C overnight, and you have left them access to the roof space - what is the actual consequence?

More space to keep warm, yes, but the actual consequence of that (bearing in mind the roof space will already be warm from the daytime, and heat has to dissipate through the roof itself)

If we are given this information we can decide for ourselves whether the benefit of getting comb cleaned up is worth this consequence.

I am not being antagonistic, it is a genuine question, so replies without ranting/insults would be appreciated.

 

[REDWOOD]

I have never seen brace comb being built on the roof, here or at the association, or heard of it.
Whoops somebody may have to start to eat words, read this post only yesterday
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18989

 

[Finman]

.
That was again 2-hive owners truth agaisnt 50 yars experience.

If you look a little my home place, I take a keen care about insullation and ventilation.

- I use upper entrances almos in every box, but in 6 box hives I keep open only 2 upper holes, because more makes the queen to move lay upstairs.
- I do not use excluder.

- My productive hives are 5-6 boxes, even more. I take care of ventilation that bees can react on heavy flows.
- I keep ventilation proper that brooding is in maximum.


I have lots of experience to tell, from what I see that hive is cold.

In your under 20C temps I would keep ventilating quite limited.



Keep you hives as you like, but I just tell my experiences from issue.

 

[Finman]

.

Keep it simple


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsVGbcBMWuw&feature=related[/ame]

 

[MandF]

I have never seen brace comb being built on the roof, here or at the association, or heard of it.
Whoops somebody may have to start to eat words, read this post only yesterday
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18989

<sigh>

I have never seen it. Personally. Myself.

I know it happens, but until/unless it starts happening to me, I will continue to use the roof space to allow my bees to clean up comb.

Clearly, if instead of cleaning comb they were making comb and filling it, it would defeat the object.

I dont know if I dont see it because of the microclimate here in West London, but I don't. Not on my hives, not on the association hives, over the last 4-5 years.

 

[MandF]

.
Keep you hives as you like, but I just tell my experiences from issue.

Hey, no problem - thanks for the explanation.

I am not trying to teach anyone anything i understand there may be a bit of extra effort/energy spent if a feed hole is open, and that energy could be used to increase yield maybe, but as I am not commercial and only have 2 hives (well, 4 at the moment), and I get no issue with brace comb, I am happy to let the bees clean up comb which I can then immediately render down.

Saves on some mess, which is more important to the wife than a few more jars of honey.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Bees seems to cope quite well despite what the beekeeper does.

It's sunny in Norfolk. Time to go outside and play.

 

[MandF]

Bees seems to cope quite well despite what the beekeeper does.

It's sunny in Norfolk. Time to go outside and play.

A-frickin-men

 

[For want of a better word]

A-frickin-men

Straw women and India rubber children !!


It's Raining AGAIN !!!​

 

[jackbee]

50 yars experience.

elapsed years or hive years?

 

[Alabamaeee]

Roll on some sunny weather as it seems the forum has reached it's normal "disgruntled no bees to play with" winter phase early this year

 

[Outlander]

Is that millimeters or inches?????​

Inches

 

[jeffdavies]

Thought I would add my bit -

I keep the feed hole closed all of the time except for feeding.
A sheet of insulating material stays in place above the cover board, during Summer and Winter.
In Summer, to draw the bees up into Supers and to trap warm air during the Winter.
Because of mesh floors, I believe the bees no longer require top ventilation.
A case of warm air of course rises and the damp cold air, plus the mites fall through the mesh.

Previously, before the introduction of mesh floors, top ventilation I guess would have been vital, to allow circulation of air and to stop dampness.

All my cover boards are made from recycled clear plastic/polycarbonate so that
I can see what's going on inside, even in wet windy or cold weather!

 

[Finman]

, top ventilation I guess would have been vital, to allow circulation of air and to stop dampness.
!

In our country, if the house or beehive is damp, we add insulation that the interrior is warm. The diffrence in air temp keeps relative moisture smaller in warmer space.


You British will never learn insulation, ventilation, dew point, condensation, heat production of the bees. Carry on like you have done millions of years.

I have said many times that go to second hand shop and buy to hives XXXXL wollen shirts.

Oh boy! Think about the thing that you lift your house roof up and put match boxes between roof and walls. why? To get room air dry...

 

[For want of a better word]

In our country, if the house or beehive is damp, we add insulation that the interrior is warm. The diffrence in air temp keeps relative moisture smaller in warmer space.


You British will never learn insulation, ventilation, dew point, condensation, heat production of the bees. Carry on like you have done millions of years.

I have said many times that go to second hand shop and buy to hives XXXXL wollen shirts.

Oh boy! Think about the thing that you lift your house roof up and put match boxes between roof and walls. why? To get room air dry...

No in the majority of damp old English houses... latterly built on flood plains... a de humidifier is running 24/7 !
How many coal burning power stations does that need to keep in megawatts?

At least our modern coal burners filter out the acids to save the forests far far away to the East !!

 

[Poly Hive]

My local coal burner which the activists wanted to shut down by force... is spending billions on upgrading, and installing as well scrubbers to make it as clean as possible.

More power to E-on in this case.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

top ventilation I guess would have been vital, to allow circulation of air and to stop dampness.

Hi Jeff, (and for any new beeks who might like to get an idea of recent changes for the better)

It was considered vital by many, yes. The top insulation has long been used, but, I fear was fairly inadequate when considering the 'dampness' stakes.

When I started, a few layers of newspaper or a couple carpet tiles was the order of the winter insulation. While clearly better than nothing, it did not prevent a damp hive in the depths of winter. My mentor accepted some damp and mouldy comb, in spring-time, as normal.

As a new beek I had trouble getting my head around the apparent art of arranging the right amount of ventilation required. I very quickly grabbed the 'new fangled' open mesh floor idea (it was touted as a 'varroa' floor by the advertising hype type, but it didn't need much to spot it was not the revelation claimed in that department, but did offer an alternative hive ventilation system with no(?) drawbacks and and (independently) reported huge improvements in over-wintering.

So I tried one of my four home colonies on an OMF and it worked. Colony went through in good shape and no dampness problem at all. So they got changed in fairly quick time.

I reasoned that heat loss was a major winter problem as most of the consumed stores were carbohydrate and the bees were not exactly running around using up energy, so I insulated heavily (I still have some of the 100mm blocks of polystyrene that I jammed into a super for covering each hive crownboard). After all, if it wasn't going out downwards through the OMF, it must be going upwards.

Some local association members looked on my 'efforts' as somewhat unnecessary and even cranky (I changed to 14 x12 and to top bee space as well - for related and other reasons). They even told me so - that I was out on a limb with kit that was 'different to the norm' and that the urge to try out these non-mainstream ideas would pass.

How wrong they were. Many have now adopted the OMF and top insulate more effectively (most have even left out the matchsticks!) and admit that 14 x 12 is an alternative format to a brood and a half. Only the recent newbies with Langstroths (who feel a bit 'out on a limb' with them) are using top bee space, I think.

I do realise that the bees do not need the whole area of a complete OMF floor for ventilation and that the 'Harding floor' is likely a very good compromise, but I don't prevent them brooding higher in the boxes in spring, so spring build-up is less compromised by the mesh floor, in my hives, than for single deep boxes.

All these changes were not my revolutionary inventions, but progress by simply observing the facts and comparing timber hives with polystyrene equivalents. At times times I feel like I should have converted to poly-Langstroth a long time ago, as my timber hives + insulation now more closely resemble, or emulate, the polys. But the timber ones are still good and can compare favourably with the polyhives, as long as the insulation cladding is applied proficiently - but sooo much simpler to buy good poly these days! (and lighter and in National format).

I agree with much of that which Polyhive pushes out re poly, apart from his dislike of one supplier. And Finman has had the benefit of them in much harsher winter conditions than we have to endure in the UK, and writes far more sense than some, on the matter. Somehow, I don't think he includes all of us when the says quote: You British will never learn insulation, ventilation, dew point, condensation, heat production of the bees. Carry on like you have done millions of years. and, of course, he is wrong with the time-scale!!

How long have you been keeping bees? I am guessing at 5 -10 years? You seem to me to be a thinking beekeeper.

Regards, RAB

 

[jeffdavies]

Hi RAB, A lot of interesting information, thanks.

I have been keeping Bees since 1988, quite a while

Started using open mesh floors when the Mite arrived here in Llanelli, South Wales some 15 years ago. The colonies have always survived the harshest Winters and I have observed that some other beekeepers with no OMF have sadly lost them!

I like to experiment - handling bees for instance without gloves is so much more pleasant - I use Spearmint leaves and Surgical Spirits as a solvent to mask human scent and also great for the occasional stings! Pack a large clean empty Coffee or Beetroot glass jar with torn up leaves to release the mucilage then simply fill the jar with Surgical Spirits, replace the lid tightly (epaporates otherwise) and shake every few days. Ready to use within a day or so. As the leaves break down, repack with fresh ones. I use either empty eye wash containers as a handy container in my pocket or an empty washing up Co-operative liquid container with a snap on cap.

Surgical Spirits is expensive to buy at local stores and the cheapest I have found is Beauty Express on the internet (4 Litre containers).

Interested to hear about you using top insulation. I use Xtratherm Celotex sheets which are quite expensive but free of course when obtained as offcuts from Skips These stay on all year round and are great for drawing bees up into Supers with new undrawn foundation!

Currently experimenting with making Propolis tinctures!

Much more information can be found on our web site but because I haven't yet got 10 or more posts I can't publish them but you can easily find us using Google - West glamorgan Beekeepers and Jeff Davies Llanelli - Beekeeping the natural way

 

[oliver90owner]

I have been keeping Bees since 1988, quite a while

This misled me! quote: Previously, before the introduction of mesh floors, ...I guess would have been vital ...

Is your memory that bad?? You were there in those times!

Mineralised is available from Bonnymans (forty quid for 25l) if you use that much! Or an alternative might be propyl instead of ethyl?

and are great for drawing bees up into Supers with new undrawn foundation!

Ooh, I do hope the new beeks are taking note of this experienced view! I concur (a favourite posting ). Leaving gaping holes in the crownboard is obviously a real 'downer' in your experience.

I must remember to ask newbies if they have gaping holes in their crownboards, when they complain of the bees not drawing out foundation! That may have solved a few problems for some.

Another nail firmly banged into the coffin of the 'gaping hole brigade' (mind you, the goal posts are moving slowly in the right direction) Used to be 'we were advised... by the local association to leave the (feed) holes open', but they have steadily closed up, somewhat, recently.

As you may have seen, it is an uphill battle with the proponents for gaping holes, but the more 'anti-gapers' that come out of the woodwork, the more likely the newbies will get the real information they need.

I look forward to a few more of these gems of experience. Keep tnem coming!

Regards, RAB

 

[MandF]

Only 1 person has mentioned "gaping holes" on this forum, you ought to know, it was you.