Environmental health visit

[drstitson]

"DrS, shouldn't it be: "Timeo hominem, unum Google legentem" these days?"

whilst your suggestion is sensible it is, of course, grammatically incorrect.

for best of both worlds:

"Timeo hominem, unum forum legentem"

 

[yeogi75]

all these packers weights are fine if like us we fill by automated filling machines, cap-per, labeler ,etc only applies for large volumes of filling, we are talking about home filling which is for hobbyist beekeeper here how many hive is for a hobbyist and at what point do you become an industry. see what the enviro health man says he will be happy at a kitchen, just wants to make sure you know good hygiene practices are kept good luck

 

[Rosti]

Easy question is do bee keepers need to register with their local EHO to sell their honey in shops, car boots etc and what is entailed.

Easy answer: 'Yes' you are doing much more than direct sale from your front door. Contact local council food safety team, request and complete a registration form.

 

[Rosti]

all these packers weights are fine if like us we fill by automated filling machines,

......... Hence recommendation to fill to minimum in my summary

But there was a question to be answered about illegal over weights as well.....

 

[yeogi75]

as i say what good is it to bring up industrial regulations to clarifies what who is going to enforce these reg on to home production and as i say how many hive constitute a hobbyist and how many commercial

 

[MandF]

......... Hence recommendation to fill to minimum in my summary

But there was a question to be answered about illegal over weights as well.....

What was the question re over weights?

Even with the average system, if that allows some jars under weight, then by definition some must be over weight. MUST be over weight, in order to bring the average up.

But I think it is a moot point anyway, what hobbyist would use the average weight system to jar their honey?

And also, average system would have tolerance levels (for above/below weight) to stop a situation where there are relatively fewer "good" jars for the consumer, compared with "bad" jars (ie paying for honey you aint getting). I don't see where the unfair to competitors comes in. Wouldnt that make 50% free deals and the like illegal?

Anyhow, back to the point, not only is it not illegal to overfill your honey jars (as a hobbyist) it is recommended.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Not what I was told, nor what I have read anywhere else. A search for "trading standards jar contents weight" led me to this statement, which was exactly as I understood the regulations. Perhaps you can link to the regulations which state you cannot have overweight jars?

Excerpt below, my highlights;

---------------------------------
Honey can be filled either to Minimum Quantity or to Average Weight. In either case the scale used must be one that has been tested and approved for trade use. A stamped/verified shop scale is ideal, (see our factsheet, Weighing Equipment in Use For Trade, for more information)

For Minimum Quantity each jar should contain (net) at least the declared weight. Each jar or container must be individually weighed.

For Average Weight, there are certain rules - The Packers Rules- which must be followed. These allow for some weights to be a limited amount below the weight shown on the jar, provided that average weight is equal to or above that weight

For small producers one of the easiest ways to comply with these rules is to fill each jar by eye or on a scale then check (and make a record of ) the weights making sure that the weights are all at or above the weight declared.

last year I was invited to sell honey at a council sponsored event.....ended up with a local trading standard visit.....had to buy some "stamp" scales....as my old scales were not in date ( 1923 shop scales)

i only sell Honey as a garden gate Beekeeper but that exemption regs also allows you to sell direct to a shop

However since the EU have declared Honey a meat derived product then my medical records were also checked

Enivormentla health

never had an inspection but under stand that most modern kitchens will comply but things other than cleanlyness that they check include

the WC does not open on the kitchen area
cleaning reguim of equipment
animals are excluded from process area
food grade honey uncapping trays and containers made of food grade plastic or stainless steel
that you have a mode of operation....ie wash extractor with XXXX, clear worksurfaces of not esential items and wash down or if you spill honey it is thrown away etc

i would fail as i use a plastic clean garden tray to un cap on...not food grade plastic...and the cat gets covered in honey trying to get into the empty extractor

 

[alanf]

......... Hence recommendation to fill to minimum in my summary

But there was a question to be answered about illegal over weights as well.....

I had heard several long time local members assert that packing overweight was illegal. What the regulation used to be was that packed food could only be sold in specific weight quantities. You could sell a pound but not 17.5oz for instance. The intention was to make packages which could easily be compared by the buyer. That may have dated back to the 19th century originally, it certainly applied to bread specifically a long time ago. But that disappeared in the 2006 (may have been the predecessor) legislation, which allows for any weight you want to package as long as it's in metric and marked according to the regulations. This was mainly because packages from elsewhere of 500 grams for instance could not be legally sold and it was easier to allow anything than prescribe quantities in two scales.

So there was a theoretical offence, but it was in not selling in a standard quantity. Selling over the declared weight has never been an offence as such. It sounded plausible to me, BTW I am not a weights and measures official or lawyer.

 

[VEG]

has there ever been a case brought against a beekeeper for overfilling a jar of honey by a gram or so?
I doubt it so make sure it is as near as is possible and you wont have problems. I have had 2 visits from EH and trading standards and never had any problems with either visits.

 

[MuswellMetro]

the also asked...how do i know it is 80%/20%, well i said if it is capped it is at least that....but also produced my refractometer.....bad move becasue they then asked how i calibrated it ....but i bumbled my way through ...with calbration oil or olive oil....which i had read on the forum

 

[Langstroth]

When I registered with Environmental Health and had my interview I was braced for an absolute grilling, but the whole experience was fine. The chap cared not a jot that we had tiles on the floor and said that one sink was perfectly adequate. Honey is a low risk food stuff and a clean, tidy kitchen is fine as a place to extract and process. However, the thing that he did hammer home is that your product tracability and hygene records must be clear, up to date and show that you take all reasonable measures to ensure that you reduce the risk of contamination throughout the extraction and processing sequence. Batch labeling, equipment cleaning records and a written hazard/critical control point plan should be in place. Its really easy to get this stuff right and with a little bit of effort I got a 4 star hygiene rating which probably a bit better better than my local kebab shop. Environmental health are there to help you, not mess you around.

 

[MuswellMetro]

. Remember the exemption concerns food premises registration and not exemption from food labelling regs.

i think you are wrong ,the exemption also alows garden gate sales so long as the price is shown at the point of sale and the jar has a tracable producers...the full labeling requirements do not apply

Products which fall within this category will be subject to certain exemptions
by virtue of Regulation 23 of the FLR. This applies to honey harvested at
home and sold at the home, farmgate or in market stalls. Regulation 4(1) of
the Honey Regulations requires certain additional labelling information such
as an origin declaration to be given on specified honey products. It does
provide that this is without prejudice to the generality of Part II of the Food
Labelling Regulations 1996, which means that the general provisions in that
part of the 1996 Regulations continue to apply. Part II of the 1996
Regulations through the application of regulation 23 provides that certain
products which are prepacked for direct sale are exempt from the majority of
the labelling requirements specified in Regulation 5 of the FLR, with certain
specified exceptions. Since country of origin labelling is part of Regulation 5
(by way of Regulation 5(f) which is implemented via the 1998 amendment to
the FLR), it is the Agency’s opinion that honey prepacked for direct sale may
be exempt from the origin labelling requirements of the Honey Regulations

From a 2006 local trading standard lealfet

What labelling is required when I only sell a few jars from my premises direct
to the consumer?
Under these circumstances the Food Labelling Regulations provide some flexibility for the way in which
the required labelling information is presented.
For honey the essential labelling information is: the name of the food, a weight indication (prescribed
quantity), country of origin and price per jar.
The labelling information for these products may appear either on a label attached to the food or on a
notice, ticket or label that is clearly visible to the intending purchaser at the place where the food is
selected please refer to our non pre-packed guidance notes).
Please note: Selling food loose or pre-packed for direct sale does not require a minimum durability
date. However, we would recommend the use of a 'lot' or 'batch' identification to help facilitate a recall
of the product if one were necessary.


MINEFIELD Isn't...even the source can't area on country of origin

 

[yeogi75]

When I registered with Environmental Health and had my interview I was braced for an absolute grilling, but the whole experience was fine. The chap cared not a jot that we had tiles on the floor and said that one sink was perfectly adequate. Honey is a low risk food stuff and a clean, tidy kitchen is fine as a place to extract and process. However, the thing that he did hammer home is that your product tracability and hygene records must be clear, up to date and show that you take all reasonable measures to ensure that you reduce the risk of contamination throughout the extraction and processing sequence. Batch labeling, equipment cleaning records and a written hazard/critical control point plan should be in place. Its really easy to get this stuff right and with a little bit of effort I got a 4 star hygiene rating which probably a bit better better than my local kebab shop. Environmental health are there to help you, not mess you around.

and possible public liability insurance as well

 

[MuswellMetro]

mode of operation needs to be something like this

.

 

[Chris B]

My local EHO declined to add me to their register as they regard me as a "primary producer" because the majority of my honey goes in a barrel and gets packed for the consumer elsewhere. This in spite of me making it clear I do actually sell a few thousand jars via local shops. They wouldn't even come for an inspection when I asked them.

 

[Tim1606]

Easy question is do bee keepers need to register with their local EHO to sell their honey in shops, car boots etc and what is entailed. I have my meeting now with the EHO in a couple of weeks he sounds really nice and wants to help (had to postpone on the phone for a week, due to work commitments).

We wanted to do farmers markets and we sell to a few shops, so when we asked the council about the markets, they said we had to register with them.
A visit from the EHO in which we showed them the whole procedure and gave it to them in a step by step document. She gaves us a five rating (highest). She also said that honey was classed as a low risk product.

 

[itma]

mode of operation needs to be something like this

<pdf attached>
.

Brilliant!
Many thanks.


/Maybe that should be a 'sticky'...? (Unlike the actual processing...)

 

[The Cumbrian]

Really? Why is that? (Not saying you're wrong - just interested).

I had a friend who was a publican, he served a man from weights and measures beer in a glass with a pint line mark and filled it to the brim.

He was severely reprimanded as "if a customer asks for a pint they must get a pint not more not less".

Perhaps he would have been OK if they had asked fro a glass of beer.

Can you get away with overweight jars if you state 'minimum content' on the label?

Sorry don't know on that score but I would think more likely to be OK.

 

[Poly Hive]

Ok I was wrong about the over weight as the rules have now changed.

I mailed the Trading Standards and this is the reply:

Many thanks for your enquiry. Following my voicemail today, here is a more detailed response:-

The Regulations concerning the sale of jarred honey only really apply to packers or importers. However, there has been a fundamental change in legislation during recent years, in that "Prescribed Quantities" have been removed for almost all products.

Example: it used to be the case that a 454g (1lb) jar of honey was permitted to be sold, but a 500g jar was not, as 500g was not a prescribed quantity. (Of course, if a jar actually contained 500g of honey, but was labelled as 454g, there was no offence.)

Nowadays, therefore, honey may be sold in just about any quantity (by weight), but the jars must be labelled correctly. Goods which are made up in packages (or jars) to a constant amount - known as the "Nominal Quantity" - are controlled by the Weights and Measures (Packaged Goods) Regulations 2006. These Regulations lay down rules for packers and importers, such that the average quantity (per batch) of a package must be at least the stated nominal quantity. Packages containing less than the nominal quantity are permitted, down to a defined level (the "Tolerable Negative Error"), as long as the average remains sufficiently high. There are no regulations concerning packages which exceed the nominal quantity.

So, to answer your question, it is certainly not legally as bad to be overweight as to be underweight, and from a customer's viewpoint it is beneficial. From the packer's perspective, however, excessive product "giveaway" is not good business practice, and may be a cause for concern to Trading Standards officers (as it could indicate poor product control in the packing process, and thus an elevated risk of deficient packages being created).

If you are involved solely in selling jars of honey, the only realistic offences would be knowingly offering for sale deficient packages or packages from a failed batch. However, in most cases, it is highly unlikely that the retailer would have (or be expected to have) that information.

I hope that this covers all aspects of your query but, of course, if you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to get back to me.

Kind regards,
John.

John Pritchard, Trading Standards Officer
Trading Standards Service
Leicestershire County Council
County Hall
Glenfield
Leics.

PH

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I had a friend who was a publican, he served a man from weights and measures beer in a glass with a pint line mark and filled it to the brim.

He was severely reprimanded as "if a customer asks for a pint they must get a pint not more not less".

Maybe to stop people getting too drunk!

"I only had two pints occifer"

It wasn't uncommon when us 'lads' were regulars at one pup to nearly empty a pint glass, ask for a half in it and get the thing filled to the brim.