End of season splits

[JOF]

I'm a newbie and lost my 1st hive last winter. I loved it last year and am gutted to have all the gear, no idea (bees)!

I am waiting for a swarm from my local bee association, but have also ordered a local buckfast nuc (as I'm bottom of my BKA swarm list) which will arrive end June.

I want to expand to reduce the chances of being bee-less again. So, do you think it would be too ambitious to get two splits from this nuc and get the virgin queens open mated?

I was thinking feeding to help increase colony strength and then try to get 2 x 3 frame nucs out of it mid-end August to be overwintered in poly nucs. Do Queens still get mated that late in the season?

Not interested in honey yet, I would just like to start next year with 3 viable colonies.

Or if anyone's got a free swarm in Hampshire?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This is the same old story I'm afraid, seen it again and again. It's almost an obsession with people telling beginners they must have two colonies going into winter Not all the advice people give is good (in fact, by what I've seen over the years - the exact opposite).
You are much better off going into winter with one strong healthy colony than three weak substandard ones.
Concentrate on getting this nuc built up, treat for varroa in a timely manner to ensure your winter bees aren't compromised by varroa, then ensure they are fed and well stored going into winter.
Have confidence in getting this one colony right rather than hedging your bets and fretting all winter with three poor hives

 

[BugsInABox]

I'm a newbie and lost my 1st hive last winter. I loved it last year and am gutted to have all the gear, no idea (bees)!

I am waiting for a swarm from my local bee association, but have also ordered a local buckfast nuc (as I'm bottom of my BKA swarm list) which will arrive end June.

I want to expand to reduce the chances of being bee-less again. So, do you think it would be too ambitious to get two splits from this nuc and get the virgin queens open mated?

I was thinking feeding to help increase colony strength and then try to get 2 x 3 frame nucs out of it mid-end August to be overwintered in poly nucs. Do Queens still get mated that late in the season?

Not interested in honey yet, I would just like to start next year with 3 viable colonies.

Or if anyone's got a free swarm in Hampshire?

Do you know why you lost them?

 

[drdrday]

Agree with JBM. Put everything you've got into your colony this year to make sure that this time they're able to get through the winter.
I started with one 6 frame nuc, although an overwintered one, so ahead of where yours will be. I just concentrated on getting them really well built up and prepared for winter. By the end of the season they were on double brood and packed full of stores. I'd fed them through autumn with syrup + thymol (against nosema), I'd treated for varroa with OA at the end of August and again in December, and I'd added plenty of Kingspan insulation to my cedar hive. I learnt a lot that first year, just concentrating on getting that one colony into the best possible condition for the winter. They breezed through so that by late May the next year I was doing an AS and up to two colonies.
Personally I'd always opt for this, and if your first bees didn't make it through last winter I'd be especially careful to avoid whatever killed them off last time.

 

[jeff33]

I am with JBM on this one, strong colonies going into winter is the way forward. If they are treated properly for varroa and have adequate accessible stores there is no reason for them to die.

 

[JOF]

Interesting responses, I was expecting go for many splits. JBM is right that people always talk (and have told me) about having more than 1 colony to protect against losses.

Mine went into last winter looking ok, not showing distress or wing deformity, plenty of stores but not a large colony.
Not many varroa on the board so I didn't treat in autumn - I think that was the problem.

Noticed more varroa in new year so I trickled OA end Jan (it was v cold) thinking I'd get a good result (brood free). And I did - approx 900 dropped over 2 days.
Repeated a couple of weeks later and v small drop.
When I opened for a proper inspection on a warm day late March the colony was v small and continued to dwindle to nothing by end April.
So I think I know what I need to do differently this year - treat autumn and early next year.

 

[drdrday]

Not many varroa on the board so I didn't treat in autumn...

Unfortunately, 'not many' varroa, especially in the autumn is just way too many.
Natural mite drops are notoriously unreliable for a start. You're much better off doing a sugar or alcohol roll. Secondly, by the time you're well into autumn it's getting too late to properly deal with varroa. You really need to be knocking back the mite numbers hard at the end of the season as that's when the winter bees are being produced.
I'm sure if you're better prepared this year your colony will make it through without any problems and you'll have more than one colony next year. Just learn from last year's experiences and use that to your advantage this year.

 

[Boston Bees]

Not many varroa on the board so I didn't treat in autumn - I think that was the problem.

Yep, but good that you have worked this out. I have heard so many new beekeepers say this, when describing why they lost their colony overwinter.

Best advice for new beekeepers, I think, is to not even try to count varroa. Assume you have lots, and treat accordingly

 

[jeff33]

Mine went into last winter looking ok, not showing distress or wing deformity, plenty of stores but not a large colony.
Not many varroa on the board so I didn't treat in autumn - I think that was the problem.

There we are, here is your answer why they died, look no further. The board count is unreliable at best of time. The only time I rely on it is after vaping a hive to see the dead mite count. you should always treat in autumn and again in winter when there is a brood break.

 

[madasafish]

Yep, but good that you have worked this out. I have heard so many new beekeepers say this, when describing why they lost their colony overwinter.

Best advice for new beekeepers, I think, is to not even try to count varroa. Assume you have lots, and treat accordingly

I have been keeping bees for 11 seasons. I gave up counting varroa after four seasons and now just treat.

As far as splitting , I concur with the "don't split" advice.

You need a STRONG colony to overwinter successfully. When you have more expertise, you may, but in your first year the expertise you need is getting a colony to overwinter successfully and thrive the following year.

And then build on that success.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

and be mindful that multiple OA trickling doses in quick succession can be damaging to both the bees and queen.

 

[JOF]

Great advice, thank you. I think I knew where I went wrong, but helpful to have confirmation from the experienced beeks on here.
I'll have a plan for this season and appreciate the unreliability of checking drop numbers. I haven't tried alcohol or sugar roll so will give that a go.
I guess it's all part of learning how to become a beekeeper.

 

[Vartusmeister]

As it was previously said...
I only had one nucleus colony when started in Maisemore nuc box. Got it in July 2019 from my association. I bought an additional Maisemore nuc brood box and a super nuc box as well. So my plan was simple. To build up a colony to a level where the wee super of 6 frames is filled with stores and the two brood boxes full with bees.
Did not count mites because I did not have a proper tray to do that under a nuc box. So, I assumed there are twenty million +/- another million mites in there, so I should treat anyway. I treated around the 20th of August with MAQ.
And fed for the winter.
Treated again at end of December with Varromed, but only once.
They came out of winter strong, with plenty of spare stores. Transferred them to a full-size hive next spring and they were thriving.
I started with one colony, but never regretted it because I could focus on one and building them up gave me big confidence as well. Can only recommend this way of doing it. Two colonies are fine, but it is not absolutely necessary. Actually, it made me even more proud to do my first split from the surviving colony and all of my 6 current ones are splits from the original one.

 

[pargyle]

Great advice, thank you. I think I knew where I went wrong, but helpful to have confirmation from the experienced beeks on here.
I'll have a plan for this season and appreciate the unreliability of checking drop numbers. I haven't tried alcohol or sugar roll so will give that a go.
I guess it's all part of learning how to become a beekeeper.

Yes ... and with a strong colony coming out of winter you will be surprised at how fast they build up and then you have the opportunity to either demaree or wait until the start building swarm cells and you have the makings of your second colony. (and it IS useful to have at least two colonies because things do happen and with only one colony your options are limited for restocking). The second year is where you really start to become a beekeeper and it's a pretty steep learning curve ....lots to look forward to.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Interesting responses, I was expecting go for many splits. JBM is right that people always talk (and have told me) about having more than 1 colony to protect against losses.

Mine went into last winter looking ok, not showing distress or wing deformity, plenty of stores but not a large colony.
Not many varroa on the board so I didn't treat in autumn - I think that was the problem.

Noticed more varroa in new year so I trickled OA end Jan (it was v cold) thinking I'd get a good result (brood free). And I did - approx 900 dropped over 2 days.
Repeated a couple of weeks later and v small drop.
When I opened for a proper inspection on a warm day late March the colony was v small and continued to dwindle to nothing by end April.
So I think I know what I need to do differently this year - treat autumn and early next year.

Broodless periods don't generally last through January. I'd suggest late December would have been a better time for your winter OA trearment. Different opinions will no doubt be offered.
Between Christmas and New Year is often chosen as demonstration time in teaching apiaries which works but in my opinion is suboptimal.

 

[jeff33]

I haven't tried alcohol or sugar roll so will give that a go.

save your sugar for cakes and your alcohol for the distillery, you can use soapy water. I tried it one season but really didn't like killing bees to check for mites. A lot of us on here use sublimation rather than OA trickle, apiguard or else. It's quicker, more effective and can be used with supers on which allows you to treat now as well.

 

[Wilco]

Where in Hampshire are you?

Agree about strong colonies and varroa treatment but remember strong colonies can starve- either through insufficient stores or if the cluster doesn't move so don't assume it'll be fine with a strong colony.

 

[JOF]

Where in Hampshire are you?

I'm in Southampton and of course you're right about watching for the cluster getting isolated from stores when the temperature drops.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

remember strong colonies can starve- either through insufficient stores or if the cluster doesn't move so don't assume it'll be fine with a strong colony.

So you're saying it's better off taking a weak colony into winter?

 

[holmbee]

I have lost colonies by trying to keep small ones alive at the end of the season rather than unite and go in to winter with fewer but strong colonies. It is not just isolation from stores that can be the problem it is the failure of smaller colonies to maintain the required level of warmth. I have had a couple of colonies that died being too small despite stores in reach. Learned that lesson the hard way early on.