Eggs not hatching

[Finman]

. Why waste more time, energy or money and increase the risk of wasp attack in a months time, or so?


RAB

Oh dear.... Buy a Queen from professionals is never waste of money.

But if two hive owner rear his of mongrels, that is pure waste in all forms.

In other words Oliver writes than Armageddon is coming...

 

[thenovice]

I disagree with finnman and O90O in that this is very interesting indeed. defective eggs should not linger around in the hive for such a long period of time. workers would clear them out and if they would be abberant in this behaviour, they would soon get moldy an die so I presume the queen is laying unviable eggs like a train that are cleared by the workers. From a scientific point of view, I would like to try and see what happens to the eggs. if you have the bees to spare you could put htem in a queenless nuc or cage them inside the nuc you have so it can not be layed up again. I bet they will clear them out. that brings us to the why? if it was just a case of lack of sperm, the queen would be drone laying so there must be either a mutation in the sperm she received (and this would then run out after a while when another male's sperm is fertilising) or something is wrong in the embryonic development due to a mutation in either the queen or both.

 

[pargyle]

My point was this isn't a nuc it's a caught swarm. All of the above was irrelevant and harsh. Especially from an "old hand" to someone asking for advice.

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You are reading RAB wrong ... his delivery may be occasionally a bit to the point but I can't remember many (if any !) occasions when his advice has been anything less than spot on the money.

In terms of what is happening to these eggs that are not hatching to larvae ... It's not a phenomena that anyone (including me) ever seems to have witnessed.

One of the reasons that bees will remove eggs from cells is when they sense that they have been fertilised by semen from a drone that is one of the Queen's own progene ... this incestuous mating results in eggs that are genetically identical to the queen and are not tolerated by the workers who sense they are not viable and remove them. Whilst this is only a theory (and I'm sure there will be others along to dismiss it) it could be that the queen has poorly mated (inadvertently) with drones that were her offspring and the resultant eggs are therefore being removed. Seems unlikely but about all I can think of ?

RAB's right though ..answer (as a beekeeper) is to fix the situation not wait and see and speculate on the reason ... all that wait and see will do is waste what is left of the colony ... terminal decline until they become vulnerable to wasp attack or robbing.

 

[Beefriendly]

this incestuous mating results in eggs that are genetically identical to the queen and are not tolerated by the workers who sense they are not viable and remove them. .

It's identical sex alleles preventing development into a female worker, not necessarily from incestuous matings. These are what are referred to as diploid drones and the eggs are viable. A small (very small) percentage of drones in many hives are thought to be diploid.

 

[Beefriendly]

ooops dupicate for some odd reason.

 

[pargyle]

It's identical sex alleles preventing development into a female worker, not necessarily from incestuous matings. These are what are referred to as diploid drones and the eggs are viable. A small (very small) percentage of drones in many hives are thought to be diploid.

So ... an egg fertilised with semen from a drone that is the progene of the queen does not turn into a worker bee - it becomes a diploid drone ?

That, presumably, is why the bees remove these eggs ? So ... as a theory as to why these eggs are not developing it could be that they are all diploid drone eggs so the bees will not tend them and will remove them ??

I understand the Diploid Haploid genetics but we are one stage further on here so I'm interested in what happens in the above situation ... one step further than my current knowledge extends ...

 

[Beefriendly]

That, presumably, is why the bees remove these eggs ? So ... as a theory as to why these eggs are not developing it could be that they are all diploid drone eggs so the bees will not tend them and will remove them ??
...

No they eat them after the eggs hatch. So whats going on here is unusual, assuming these are eggs, a few pictures would help.
The only times I ever see eggs not developing is when the number of bees is too small to keep them warm. This may be different.

 

[pargyle]

No they eat them after the eggs hatch. So whats going on here is unusual, assuming these are eggs, a few pictures would help.
The only times I ever see eggs not developing is when the number of bees is too small to keep them warm. This may be different.

Yes ... that's where I started out ... odd situation isn't it ?

 

[colinc]

You are reading RAB wrong ... his delivery may be occasionally a bit to the point but I can't remember many (if any !) occasions when his advice has been anything less than spot on the money.

I didn't accuse RAB of being incorrect. I haven't ever accused Finman of being incorrect. I will probably never know as much about bees as either of them.

I pointed out that his "answers", were to questions that weren't asked, and then he progressed to blaming this on the beekeeper which is rude, unhelpful and as the beekeeper who caused the problem is the beek who lost the swarm, not the OP who caught it just completely pointless.

There is no reason to be rude to someone asking for advice, if you don't want to be helpful, don't comment. It really is that simple.

I just object to the grumpy, unhelpful, (antique) furniture on the forum.


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[pargyle]

I just object to the grumpy, unhelpful, (antique) furniture on the forum.

"I agree with Finny. Queen is most likely genetically defective.

But requeening might not be sensible - uniting a weak colony would be my choice. Why waste more time, energy or money and increase the risk of wasp attack in a months time, or so?

As I see it, weak nucs are entirely the fault of the beekeeper in the first place.

RAB"

Sorry Colin ... I still think you rather over-reacted ... can't see a lot wrong with RAB's post above ... goodness only knows I've seen twenty times worse from some at times on here (including me ... I classify as a grumpy antique !)

 

[Finman]

I didn't accuse RAB of being incorrect. I haven't ever accused Finman of being incorrect. I will probably never know as much about bees as either of them.

I pointed out that his "answers", were to questions that weren't asked, and then he progressed to blaming this on the beekeeper which is rude, unhelpful and as the beekeeper who caused the problem is the beek who lost the swarm, not the OP who caught it just completely pointless.

There is no reason to be rude to someone asking for advice, if you don't want to be helpful, don't comment. It really is that simple.

I just object to the grumpy, unhelpful, (antique) furniture on the forum.


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Get a life



.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Presumably, before this swarm emerged, the queen was laying normally or the colony would have superceded her. She swarmed as a viable egg-laying queen and continued laying eggs in the new nuc/hive. Something has happened to make her eggs fail to develop or are being removed by the nurse bees and replaced shortly afterwards by the queen, re-laying the empty cells.

From a beekeeping perspective, I think requeening is the answer. However, in a search to find out what's happening here, I'd be inclined to add a frame of eggs from another colony to see if the colony is aware there's a problem that needs solving, despite the presence of the queen - I think they'd supersede her but wouldn't it be interesting if they didn't?

So, Beeboy55, your colony, your decision but this thread may have given food for thought.

CVB

 

[beeboy55]

I understand those that are arguing that I should quickly correct the situation but just having another colony is of less interest to me than learning from the situation as I believe we learn more from the unusual aspects of bee-keeping over the routine problems.

Enough has been said on the allegation that the problem is down to my poor bee-keeping.

I am favouring the diploid drone theory and have taken the following steps.

Yesterday evening I caged the queen and put her in a queen less nuc.
I will check tomorrow to see if the number of eggs have be reduced by worker removal.
I have also added a frame of grafted larvae into the subject nuc to see how the workers respond to these.

I will update with any results.

 

[Beefriendly]

I am favouring the diploid drone theory and have taken the following steps.

Diploid drone theory is unlikely as even if mated with her own siblings there should be about 50% viable eggs. I think this what they see when they Instrumentally Inseminate queens with her own drones sperm. (she has 2 sex alleles (diploid), they only have one as haploid.

If you've added grafted larvae to to a queenless colony I think we can guess what they will try to do. It won't tell you anything. Perhaps putting the queen into another colony (having removed their queen) and seeing if the same phenomena happens may tell you more.
If they develop I'd ask how many frames are the bees covering (with bees) in the original swarm.

 

[Finman]

.
Problem is propably on the Queen. IT would be odd, that all 15 drones which mated the Queen, have the same problem.

You cannot solve the problem with discussion, how rude it might be. They are only bees dead eggs. Not aunt or granny.

 

[Millet]

This thread has my head battered, how does anyone know the egg's are not hatching, if a egg does not hatch after three day's surely it will be eaten or turfed out and a new one stuck in that cell maybe the Queen or a laying worker , either way me recons someone has there wires crossed.

 

[beeboy55]

Diploid drone theory is unlikely as even if mated with her own siblings there should be about 50% viable eggs. I think this what they see when they Instrumentally Inseminate queens with her own drones sperm. (she has 2 sex alleles (diploid), they only have one as haploid.

If you've added grafted larvae to to a queenless colony I think we can guess what they will try to do. It won't tell you anything. Perhaps putting the queen into another colony (having removed their queen) and seeing if the same phenomena happens may tell you more.
If they develop I'd ask how many frames are the bees covering (with bees) in the original swarm.

Thank you very useful input. I understood that diploid drones lead to pepper-potting and thought this may be an extreme case. I will read further into the breeding genetics.

I do intend to move the queen to a queenless colony ( a split I made 5 days ago) but this is a fair distance away. Hence putting her in a holding cage for a few days.

 

[Beefriendly]

Be great if you could keep us updated. If you get same again you may find some universities interested in dissecting her DNA. Not sure which ones, but as far as I'm aware it's something unknown.....I'm hoping someone will now come along and say paper x in 19xx showed it was due to a recessive mutation in gene y.

 

[colinc]

Get a life







.

Seen this argument before. It doesn't wash. I don't believe that you and RAB get any real reward for using your great and extensive knowledge to assassinate new members. It is a real shame that all I see from you two here are curt dismissive putdowns.

It is just Unnecessary.

So "Get a life" right back at you.

Why can't you see that advice does not have to be followed with a slap in the face?


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[tudorcd]

The content in this thread does not seem to follow bee physiology as we understand it.
Could it be that there is a logical flaw from the beginning ?
OP, could you please post some good pix of the "eggs" - no personal insult intended.