DWV bee on alighting board.

[bjosephd]

The best of luck with them..

Thanks!

I hope my last post didn't seem argumentative or grumpy in any way... I work incredibly hard to craft my posts as such that they are always mellow and chatty... but the written word is often tricky when debates get debatey (yep, that's a word).

My very handy mate is tempted to construct a sublimator so I might very well still be doing exactly what you say!

 

[mbc]

However, as I understand it, mite drop tells you very little unless it's to see how much varroa you have knocked down post treatment. It basically tells you how many varroa are falling out of the hive, but tells you nothing of how many remain.

natural drop is no longer regarded as any sort of accurate barometer of varroa population but "tells you nothing" is negating the no smoke without fire element of looking at the debris.

 

[bjosephd]

natural drop is no longer regarded as any sort of accurate barometer of varroa population but "tells you nothing" is negating the no smoke without fire element of looking at the debris.

It's a fair point... it's tricky to know if it means the bees have got the fire under control, or are at least aware of it... or it means they are burning in their sleep

 

[Millet]

It's a fair point... it's tricky to know if it means the bees have got the fire under control, or are at least aware of it... or it means they are burning in their sleep

Just treat them it's not rocket science, it may be late in the season but just do it, gas them, oxcalic acid is natural by the way.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I know... it's more evolution and adaptation than hippydom to be honest.

I can't help but think that in the long term we are simply breeding super mites and weak treatment dependant bees. Each time we knock down 90% of the varroa in a hive and class it as a success, we are basically inflicting the extremely high level of selective pressure to the varroa that the varroa should be inflicting on the bees. Remaining varroa that can withstand treatment then breed. We all know this.

But when you see a DWV bee struggling to exist, and want to at least have a season with some actual beekeeping it becomes a terrible conundrum.

Which approach contributes, in the long term, to the future of bees, and which contributes to the future of varroa.

Treatment can be seen as a very human thing because we want honey NOW and want to play with our bees NOW.

Which is the strong choice? Which is the selfish choice? I can't decide if actually to treat is to give up the fight against varroa. It's a sticking plaster.

BUT will I be saying that when I have a hive destroyed by varroa? What will I be saying when SHB makes it over here?! I fully accept that I might change my tune very quickly when I actually witness devastation. Or will I be scared and crumble and treat because I am told to, and never question the paradigm enough to see the other side?

Your post summarises neatly the dilemma facing beekeepers who do not wish to use chemicals on their bees. All the non-treaters I've spoken to face these difficult decisions about treating or not.

Have a look at the Swindon Bee Conservation Group website - it might give you courage to continue - or not - with or without treatment. Mites from Ron's bees were found to be infected with two variants of the DWV - a virulent Type A and a more benign (non-lethal) Type B but his bees only had the Type B virus. The virologists have suggested that the Type B virus protects the bees from Type A by a process called superinfection exclusion. Problem for us beekeepers is we don't know which type of virus our bees/mites might have.

If it's any help, I'm convinced we'll sort out the problem of Varroa by more research on DWV and its variants - see the research done on Ron Hoskins' bees in Swindon by Prof Schroeder.

As for the natural mite drop from assessing mites in a colony, it does seem to be discredited now but in winter there is not much else to use for assessing infestation. If you take care when counting mites on a monitoring board, you might be able to detect mites that have been chewed - legs missing, dents in carapace, etc. which is a sign that the bees are fighting back. On the other hand, if the mites keep dropping and none are chewed you could lose the colony. Tough decision eh?

CVB

 

[BeeJayBee]

It's possible... I could also poke some sort of inspection 'tray' in under the front as it is chocked up off the surface ever so slightly. I'll go investigate. I'm aware that varroa drop is far from the whole story. But it's a story all the same.

(It's badly placed ......)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CG5VuEDWwAIXY_p.jpg:large

Ideally hives need to be raised so there isn't a build up of debris directly beneath the floor where it can attract pests that the bees can't deal with, so leaving the hive sitting directly on a slab probably isn't a good idea.

If you turn the hive through 90 degrees in either direction you'll have access to both the front and the rear of the hive, if you put a couple of bearers (or bricks) underneath it then it'll be raised enough for debris to fall through the mesh floor and you can still put a tray beneath it - even if you rest it on the slabs/seat. It's worth doing now and then at this time of year even if it's only to see what's falling through because it will give you an idea of the size of active colony.

Just treat them it's not rocket science, it may be late in the season but just do it, gas them, oxcalic acid is natural by the way.

No, it isn't rocket science, it's beekeeping!

Most acids can be found in nature in varying concentrations, but the oxalic acid you buy is made in a factory, and not from crushed rhubarb.

Nobody has to treat their bees if they don't want to. A lot of treatment-free beekeepers are finding that their colonies are developing some local resistance, but it can take courage to take the first step down that route because there is still intense pressure to "treat or else the bees will die".

From person experience I know that treating a colony infested with the active form of DWV is a waste of time, the colony doesn't ever build up again properly. It may be that this virus affects the workers too, although it doesn't give any visual cues of the level of infection or how it might affect the workers.

There's still a lot of research to be done.

 

[bjosephd]

Thanks for your thoughts BeeJayBee,

Are you saying by...
"From personal experience I know that treating a colony infested with the active form of DWV is a waste of time, the colony doesn't ever build up again properly."
...that now I've spotted one or two DWV bees on the alighting board that the colony is doomed? Or does that not class as infestation... YET!?

AM I already nursing a dying irretrievable hive in your opinion?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Thanks for your thoughts BeeJayBee,

Are you saying by...
"From personal experience I know that treating a colony infested with the active form of DWV is a waste of time, the colony doesn't ever build up again properly."
...that now I've spotted one or two DWV bees on the alighting board that the colony is doomed? Or does that not class as infestation... YET!?

AM I already nursing a dying irretrievable hive in your opinion?

I can't say, and wouldn't say without seeing the level of the problem.

That particularly colony of mine was very badly affected (infested?) by DWV but there were also a few bees with K-wing - which suggested tracheal mites.

MAQS should have dealt with the varroa; thymolised syrup should have dealt with the acarine.

The colony was fed and nurtured - as most people would do with sick animals. The queen carried on laying etc, but the colony only ever "existed" and just about ticked over until the winter saw them off. It's possible they also had N. ceranae, but I didn't take the time to check.

Would it have been kinder to sulphur my sick colony?

 

[Hivemaker.]

MAQS should have dealt with the varroa; thymolised syrup should have dealt with the acarine.

Cannot say I ever found thymolised syrup to be of much use against Acarine, but formic acid would always clear any Acarine problems quite quickly.

As for DWV, they have generally always made a full recovery from that if not left too late before treating.

 

[mbc]

Cannot say I ever found thymolised syrup to be of much use against Acarine, but formic acid would always clear any Acarine problems quite quickly.

As for DWV, they have generally always made a full recovery from that if not left too late before treating.

Pretty much all bees have dwv, its endemic, it mostly only gets out of hand when varroa levels rise, deal with the varroa and signs of dwv will disappear, it can take a brood cycle or two after treatment though.

 

[thenovice]

Indeed... that makes sense.

A local lord high beek here 'vaped' his hives for the first time this year and I understand the drop was very dramatic... if it's due to the effectiveness of the vaping, or as a result of the very mild winter.

The fact I have a DWV bee wandering around outside the hives tells me that the queen was laying mid to late january! Especially as I read that DWV bees really don't live long at all.

(just about to place a big last day of the sale order at Mann Lake... what have I forgotten to buy?!)

if money is an issue, a heating coil to warm up a cup of tea with a copper end cap pushed inside works very well. There was a post on here I think that describes this. I 'made' one this year and treated my hives a few times with it. will cost you less than £5 and is effective judging by the mite drop.

 

[bjosephd]

More than 10 less than 20 mites on the floor since the 15th.

 

[thenovice]

More than 10 less than 20 mites on the floor since the 15th.

sounds a lot to my unexperienced ear! 10 a day is treatment alert during season... I had 3 in 8 days in my good hive, around 20 over the same period for the ones I treated. others on here will be able to advise better.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

More than 10 less than 20 mites on the floor since the 15th.

On the face of it, those numbers don't look too bad BUT we don't know the size of the colony - if it's on the point of collapse with fewer bees there, 7 mites a day natural drop could represent a significant infection. On the other hand if the colony is still quite numerous, 7 a day is nothing to worry about (DEFRA's Managing Varroa suggests light control needed).

Was there any evidence on the monitoring board of hygienic behaviour - chewed mites etc.?

Holsworthy Beekeepers have a convention this weekend and Ron Hoskins is one of the speakers. North Somerset to north Cornwall is only about a 90 minute drive and a chat with Ron might give you some comfort - or otherwise!

CVB

 

[bjosephd]

we don't know the size of the colony - if it's on the point of collapse with fewer bees there
...
Was there any evidence on the monitoring board of hygienic behaviour - chewed mites etc.?
...
Holsworthy Beekeepers have a convention this weekend and Ron Hoskins is one of the speakers. North Somerset to north Cornwall is only about a 90 minute drive and a chat with Ron might give you some comfort - or otherwise!

The colony seems reasonable healthy... they were certainly very busy and numerous out flying today, and the inspection board debris suggests they are on about 6 or 7 frames, cappings right at the front and then a more rounded brood shaped debris pattern further back which is where the varroa are.

I'm not sure if I'm qualified to spot if the mites have been chewed...! But I'll have a look.

Bums... that Holsworthy Ron talk sounds good... unfortunately my weekend consists of about 22 hours at work

Ron would be exactly the person I'd want to see do a talk and chat to!

Who on here might be going or organising? Do Holsworthy tend to post videos of their talks? That would be a talk that I imagine many would want to see.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Just seen a poor DWV bee trying to make a go of it on the alighting board.

NOT a good start. Dread to think what's going on inside.

Does that represent the tip of a grizzly varroa iceberg?

Otherwise the colony seems healthy and are super busy flying on nice days.

(obviously I haven't dug through it, also this hive does not have access to the tray due to a wall... need to work out a way of looking at drop from the front of the hive... yes, badly placed hive)

It is by no means a death sentence but looking through the whole thread you should probably treat IMO. Vaping ideally but if you don't have access to that consult back.

 

[Millet]

It is by no means a death sentence but looking through the whole thread you should probably treat IMO. Vaping ideally but if you don't have access to that consult back.

I'm clueless but i did mention that however with me being clueless i was ignored and so will many other folk by the way things are panning out, not to worry my gassed bee's are happily humming away with very little varroa, that will do me.

 

[BeeJayBee]

MAQS should have dealt with the varroa; thymolised syrup should have dealt with the acarine.

Cannot say I ever found thymolised syrup to be of much use against Acarine, but formic acid would always clear any Acarine problems quite quickly.

Thanks for spotting this HM, it was bad proof-reading on my part. Should have read "MAQS (formic acid) deal with mites, thymol any traces of nosema"

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It is by no means a death sentence but looking through the whole thread you should probably treat IMO. Vaping ideally but if you don't have access to that consult back.

If you can't vape, the oxalic trickle - not the best time to do it, but the way the weather has been lately a good chance there's not much brood in there anyway - even 50% effective is better than b*gger all

 

[bjosephd]

I'm clueless but i did mention that however with me being clueless i was ignored and so will many other folk by the way things are panning out, not to worry my gassed bee's are happily humming away with very little varroa, that will do me.

That's a little unfair... I've answered a good few of your posts directly, one of which I referred to that very suggestion of yours of vaping when I said...

"My very handy mate is tempted to construct a sublimator so I might very well still be doing exactly what you say!" (post #21)

I don't think you're either clueless or being ignored. It's a fair suggestion, just not the only option... we have also broached the topic of the implications of treating for varroa in the long term (see posts #12, #25, #26).

I try to keep as engaged as possible with threads that I start, but often they quite fairly take on a life of their own and I can't answer every post or continue to chair the entire discussion. I do like these discussions though, wherever the conversation leads...

Sorry to anyone who feels ignored. I read everything and value everyone's thoughts and suggestions. So keep posting!