Drone rearing for queen breeding

[Scout]

Recently, I have been reading alot on queen rearing.

Everything which I have read talks of the importance of selecting the right queen for traits. However, I have found nothing about selecting drones. Surely, a good local selection of drones also with good genetics would be just as important?

Furthermore, I read often that drone cells are nocked back I'm the hive for various reasons.

Obviously, I understand that you can't select drones due to their mating habits. But can't help wonder a few things. Why do people despise drones so much given their importance in mating? If a keeper wishes to produce mated queen the surely rearing drones in the same apiary would be of benefit.

I have read a few queen producers "flood the area with drones". How is that done?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Surely, a good local selection of drones also with good genetics would be just as important?

yes

Furthermore, I read often that drone cells are nocked back I'm the hive

only by the non thinking amongst the beekeeping fraternity

for various reasons.

what reasons could that be?

Why do people despise drones so much given their importance in mating?

I refer you to my second answer

If a keeper wishes to produce mated queen the surely rearing drones in the same apiary would be of benefit.

it would

I have read a few queen producers "flood the area with drones". How is that done?

a few ways - using drone foundation in brood boxes to encourage drone production, some breeders will keep queens with good genetics even if they become drone layers to have drone factories, dropping a few frames of emerging worker brood now and then to keep the 'factory' populated with nurse bees.

 

[JamezF]

Some people use drone comb removal as a form of varroa control. As far as I recall it may still be recommended by the BBKA. Perhaps some people also view "too many" drones as wasteful of resources, which seems an odd point of view to me.

Drones carrying the genes you'd like are important, clearly, but you probably can't rear them in the same apiary as the queens because, as far as I recall, they tend to fly different distances to mate. For example, virgin queens may stick to DCAs closer to the hives whilst drones from the same hives may tend to hang around DCAs further away (I may have that the wrong way around). This seems a sensible adaptation from an evolutionary point of view because it helps to ensure the diversity of the gene pool.

To "flood the area with drones" you'd probably need to have control of a number of apiaries in the area so there's a reasonable chance that the drones whose genes you want end up in the same DCA as the queens you want mating. Or you save yourself a lot of bother and go down the II route.

James

 

[Scout]

yes

only by the non thinking amongst the beekeeping fraternity

what reasons could that be?

I refer you to my second answer

it would

a few ways - using drone foundation in brood boxes to encourage drone production, some breeders will keep queens with good genetics even if they become drone layers to have drone factories, dropping a few frames of emerging worker brood now and then to keep the 'factory' populated with nurse bees.

I can't answer why some people nock back drones cells. If the hive chooses to grow a drone then I would suggest they have perfectly good reasons for doing so..
.if nothing more than evolution.

Out of interest, I understand drones can be created by a drone laying bee (not a queen).

Anyone know if these drones are capable or worthy of reproduction?

 

[mbc]

I can't answer why some people nock back drones cells. If the hive chooses to grow a drone then I would suggest they have perfectly good reasons for doing so..
.if nothing more than evolution.

Out of interest, I understand drones can be created by a drone laying bee (not a queen).

Anyone know if these drones are capable or worthy of reproduction?

Sub optimal drones are exactly that, it's why I've always eschewed pushing colonies to produce any more drones than they're already inclined to.

 

[ericbeaumont]

drones can be created by a drone laying bee (not a queen).

Almost: a drone laying queen is unmated and will produce drones only.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Some people use drone comb removal as a form of varroa control. As far as I recall it may still be recommended by the BBKA.

I again refer you to my second answer

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Almost: a drone laying queen is unmated and will produce drones only.

as will a mated queen that has run out of juice

 

[Antipodes]

Recently, I have been reading alot on queen rearing.

Everything which I have read talks of the importance of selecting the right queen for traits. However, I have found nothing about selecting drones. Surely, a good local selection of drones also with good genetics would be just as important?

Furthermore, I read often that drone cells are nocked back I'm the hive for various reasons.

Obviously, I understand that you can't select drones due to their mating habits. But can't help wonder a few things. Why do people despise drones so much given their importance in mating? If a keeper wishes to produce mated queen the surely rearing drones in the same apiary would be of benefit.

I have read a few queen producers "flood the area with drones". How is that done?

Joe Horner uses little trains that run in and out of a shed.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/moon-light-mating-explained.39010/

 

[rolande]

Recently, I have been reading alot on queen rearing.

Everything which I have read talks of the importance of selecting the right queen for traits. However, I have found nothing about selecting drones. Surely, a good local selection of drones also with good genetics would be just as important?

Furthermore, I read often that drone cells are nocked back I'm the hive for various reasons.

Obviously, I understand that you can't select drones due to their mating habits. But can't help wonder a few things. Why do people despise drones so much given their importance in mating? If a keeper wishes to produce mated queen the surely rearing drones in the same apiary would be of benefit.

I have read a few queen producers "flood the area with drones". How is that done?

I've come to think along the lines of just letting all the colonies produce drones as they wish, for someone on the south coast who doesn't start grafting till early may this works fine. Again, late season mating is usually very successful here despite the natural cessation of drone rearing and the potential reduced viability of older drones, I've never been convinced by one or other reason as to why this is so -but I have thought about it a lot. Important thing is that it isn't broken so I carry on the same.

I'm doubtful about trying to select limited drone lines as a valid tool for practical beekeepers. *If* you're a bee breeder -not someone who churns out dozens of daughters from a single bought in AI queen (and then claims that it's a breeder without any field trial or comparison with sister queens) then you'll have reason to go down this rather limiting route but for most of us I think the best thing we can do for our bees is just to have lots of healthy drones available from plenty of different colonies. It doesn't matter if our queens don't mate with our own drones because some of those lines will come back in future years.

I've mentioned the Keith Delaplane interview about polyandry on Bob Binnie's channel before because it's very clear and not too long. Well worth watching.

Below is a part screenshot from John Atkinson's 'Background to Bee Breeding' (Northern Bee Books) a book that's now a little dated in places but nevertheless is most certainly still worth reading if you're interested in this stuff, money well spent without doubt.

 

[Benthebeeman]

I have been thinking the same.

I worry that if you buy a breeder queen, and then clone daughters by grafting, and then open mate these daughters with random local drones with a variety of genes - you will end up with a mixture of worker genetics. If this is the case, it makes buying a pure bred queen a bit pointless because you will be protecting the pure genes and then purposefully mixing them when you open mate them with local drones surely?

I get that the original grandmother pure bred will pass on 50% of her 32 chromosomes, but the local drones will then introduce 100% of their 16 chromosomes to their daughters - meaning the workers and drones of the colonies you produce with them will have a real mix of genes, possible some aggressive or with high swarm tendencies.

I think the only way is it isolated mate the queens on an island or use ai?

 

[bpmurray]

In Ireland, we're working hard to preserve Amm genetics. Part of this is that all reasonably pure (95%+) Amm queens will be given 2 frames with drone foundation every year. These then flood the neighbourhood so open mating is pretty successful. In your situation with a single breeder queen, you cannot do this. I suspect the only solution is to get hold of a number of breeder queens from similar lineages, allow them all to raise loads of drones and then see how your open mating goes. Working with neighbouring beekeepers would also help.

Probably the only way to be absolutely sure of correct mating would be to use II, but that requires quite an investment in equipment and time.

 

[Benthebeeman]

In Ireland, we're working hard to preserve Amm genetics. Part of this is that all reasonably pure (95%+) Amm queens will be given 2 frames with drone foundation every year. These then flood the neighbourhood so open mating is pretty successful. In your situation with a single breeder queen, you cannot do this. I suspect the only solution is to get hold of a number of breeder queens from similar lineages, allow them all to raise loads of drones and then see how your open mating goes. Working with neighbouring beekeepers would also help.

Probably the only way to be absolutely sure of correct mating would be to use II, but that requires quite an investment in equipment and time.

Thanks for the info, sounds a great project you're doing. I've been reading the BIBBa bee improvements program and guidance this morning and I'm keen to try to do my bit to improve the areas genetics. I might try to increase the drones in the hives to flood the area this year. I know a neighbouring beekeeper who I might ask to cooperate with and see if we can create an area of good genetics. Thanks for the reply

 

[Swarm]

Working with neighbouring beekeepers is the best way forward and gives you more diversity even with a single sub species.

 

[rolande]

I'm reawakening this thread simply to add an interesting YouTube video (some of the question and answer section gives real pause for thought) on the subject of drones.

Dr Garrett Slater:

 

[Swarm]

Both fascinating and worrying.