Dowsing

[Alabamaeee]

Just to add my own theory to BBG's other post


Walk over known drain or water pipe - should cross - where intersection is allows depth reading (more skill required)

Best let your wife or other female do it a few times and children are always thrilled by the movement.

Why some have no success is a mystery and much talk about not being in tune with the Earth vibrations will ensue.

It's the same reason most people who have had a Reiki treatment or attunement don't immediately feel any energy flow, but after 10 or 15 mins they begin to experience it.

We are not generally aware of any subtle energy flow in the body, until it becomes stronger and we can then sense and experience it. Once it has been sensed then in the future the weaker energy flow is easily detected.

It may be possible that those that find dowsing works are more attuned to weak energy fields.

 

[gatley]

This sounds a little like induced hysteria, the dowsers know where the water is and they are 'expected' to show the sticks bending. What else would you expect to happen? Try the ouija board, that probably works on the same principle.

 

[MandF]

Also, that recent(ish) huge German funded experiment I linked about earlier (where they wanted to prove dowsing works) asked for people who could dowse, and then they selected the "best" of those to join the experiment.

As the believers dont want to check my link, it boils down to the fact the 1 best experiment (out of 483 I seem to remember) was cited as proving dowsing does work, and yet if you plot their results against totally random results, they are almost identical.

In other words, the best of the best got dowsing results no better than totally random.

In a hugely expensive experiment, funded by the German government with the aim to prove dowsing works.

 

[gatley]

where they wanted to prove dowsing works

Experiments should be done by impartial people. 1 out of 483 is insiginificant and amounts to noise in the data.

 

[Nose Ma]

Re: Reiki - sadly that (like homeopathy) has no effect above placebo either. Which may explain why so few feel an "energy flow". As we are debating this in a vaguely scientific way – here is a paper on it (please remove spaces) - h t t p://online library.wi ley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2008.01729.x/abstract it’s a meta study, looking at 205 assessments of Reiki. That’s a Good Thing – because it’s a big sample. In fact, it was all the studies the authors could find from across the world. Big samples are better than small ones. Its conclusion reads “the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition. Therefore the value of reiki remains unproven.” If that was the conclusion for, say, an antibiotic all of us here would request it not be sold, and chucked in the bin. You’ll note “unproven” so the author retains an open mind.

I think the acid test on these is – if one was hit by a car, would one request a Reiki practitioner, a homeopath, or a proper doctor? Answers on a postcard…

Back to dowsing. I have done my own crude experiment, which you can all try at home. So here, in my best O Level Chemistry manner, is my paper:

AIM: To establish if the wire rods used in dowsing are sensitive to the proximity of water, metal, or electrical current.
METHOD: Prepare two dowsing rods in biro cases. Clamp the biro cases in a configuration to resemble a distance apart the same as an adult male with his elbows at his side. 14” was selected. Put the wires in a horizontal position, as if facing out from a person, whilst being held in the biro cases. Have the wires fixed about three feet above the floor – similar to an adult male standing and holding them. If required a shop dummy could be used instead. Ensure the wires can freely swing. The wires should not be crossed at the start of the experiment.
Wait to ensure the apparatus is stable.
Place an empty hosepipe under the rods. Note if the rods move.
Place nothing under the rods. Note if the rods move.
Run water through a hosepipe under the rods. Note if the rods move.
Keep still water in the hosepipe under the rods. Note if the rods move.
RESULTS: The rods did not move in any of the situations described
CONCLUSION: Metal rods in biro cases are not sensitive to the proximity of water.

My experiment does not disprove dowsing. It does, I think, show the rods are not part of any effect seen. This leaves the dowser, or the interaction of the rods and the dowser. That is not an experiment I can do alone, but I am happy to help design one.

We may have a whole new TV series being designed here “The Beekeeing Forum delves into…”

 

[kevinrrogers67]

As a trained scientist I have read this thread with interest but also some horror. There are many misconceptions about scientific method.

Science can test whether something is true or not without actually giving a reason or having an opinion. This is what doublr blind drug trial do i.e. does the drug have a mesurable effect on a particular disease. Often it is unknown how the drug work but for the patient this really does not matter.

The experiments so far almost certainly show that dowsing does not work. OK somebody might get lucky but if you put it to the test the experiment show that they cannot find water better than somebody guessing under the test conditions. Fact like it or not.

Much earluer in the thread RAB gave a plausible scienitifc explanations of charged rods being able to deflect a stream of water. This is a fact see any A level chemistry textbook and could exlain how dowsing could work. (incidently he should have said hydrogen bonding in water not London forces but is of not consequence to his post). So it could work and be explained but nobody has produced any evidence of a scientific nature as yet.

I think the evidence so far strongly suggest (almost definitely) that it does not work. BUT it still remains possible, but unlikely, that there are some condition not tested scientifically which would work.

In reference to one post science cannot prove or disproved a faith such as does God exist as there are not experiment which can be done. It could however investiage if praying to God work.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Nose Ma
the rods, Y shaped stick ect, have to be held by a person,gripped,something to do with electrical input from the body..static maybe....look on the Dowsers Forum, even an arm injury can effect who can or cannot Dowse.

 

[psafloyd]

Re: Reiki - sadly that (like homeopathy) has no effect above placebo either. Which may explain why so few feel an "energy flow". As we are debating this in a vaguely scientific way – here is a paper on it (please remove spaces) - h t t p://online library.wi ley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2008.01729.x/abstract it’s a meta study, looking at 205 assessments of Reiki. That’s a Good Thing – because it’s a big sample. In fact, it was all the studies the authors could find from across the world. Big samples are better than small ones. Its conclusion reads “the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition. Therefore the value of reiki remains unproven.” If that was the conclusion for, say, an antibiotic all of us here would request it not be sold, and chucked in the bin. You’ll note “unproven” so the author retains an open mind.

Although I prefer natural remedies, I was highly sceptical of reiki due to the high mumbo-jumbo quotient.

About 12 years ago, a friend at work offered to give me a quick go as I had suffered a long term RSI problem with my right (mouse) arm. This resulted in a constant dull ache that would occasionally become a nagging pain.

In order to prove her faith in her practice misplaced, I accepted and settled down in a chair for a big load of nothing.

Well, after a few minutes of being aware of her moving her hands around behind my head and over my arms, I had the most amazing reaction. Everywhere she placed her hands on me, they were absolutely roasting, except for when she touched the bad arm when it felt absolutely icy.

After about half an hour she said she'd finished and to sit down for a bit and see how I felt. I was completely spaced out, and felt the need to leave the office early as I couldn't get my stuff together after lunch. When I got home, my missus thought I had been out on liquid lunch as I was slightly tuned out and didn't believe me for a while that I hadn't had a long liquid lunch.

Don't know if I could feel the arm afterwards, but by the next morning, I couldnt feel any pain. What was more surprising was that I didn't get the pain back later that day, week, month, or in fact ever since.

I am still not a believer in reiki. I 'believe' that most who practice it are charlatans or misguided, who do it because THEY want to believe they can do it.

This woman never pushed me into it and never boasted of it. In fact, she didn't even practice and certainly not on humans. She had learnt the technique to use on her horses, who were the centre of her life and for whom she really worked.

Since then, I have had acupuncture, physio, etc and the release they have given has been a similar, though diminished feeling to the one I experienced on that day.

Can it work? I don't know. I only know that after I had that reatment from Hillary, I never had the symptoms again.

Even if it could be proved to be a placebo (and I don't think it would, as I wanted it to fail), it worked. Sometimes we are too dismissive of the placebo effect.

 

[Travelator]

It's important to remember that placebos genuinely do work - they make people feel better, which is a good thing. They don't, of course, cure infections or mend broken bones.
Reiki might be a big fat placebo, but it worked splendidly for psafloyd and that's unequivocally a good thing.
The scientific evidence which has been quoted (haven't reviewed it myself) says that dowsing is "no better than placebo". So it might (like placebo) be very good at making people feel good about themselves, or helping them to acknowledge stuff that they were already aware of subconsciously. But proven not to be much use for finding stuff unless the dowser already knows where it is.

 

[Steve Dyer]

.
The scientific evidence which has been quoted (haven't reviewed it myself) says that dowsing is "no better than placebo". So it might (like placebo) be very good at making people feel good about themselves, or helping them to acknowledge stuff that they were already aware of subconsciously. But proven not to be much use for finding stuff unless the dowser already knows where it is.

Dowsing is based on the ideomotor effect. Here is a definition of it from James Randi:
ideomotor effect This is the psychological phenomenon that underlies dowsing, automatic writing, table tipping, and the Ouija board. Quite unconsciously, the participant is moving the hand enough to make the movement of the involved device occur, though he may attribute the motion to the divine or supernatural force in which he believes. In all these events, nothing in the way of information is revealed to the operator except what he already knows. The effect is very powerful with some personalities, and no amount of evidence will disabuse believers in the magical nature of the phenomenon.


The interesting bit is the last sentence, in fact why am I bothering to write this, because people who believe in dowsing have a personality type which will not accept any evidence which conflicts with their wrong belief - a bit like a religious belief in fact.

One characteristic of these people is they will believe in a load of other magical incorrect things which they quote in support of their incorrect belief. For example someone in a previous posting referred to dowsing being due to an "energy flow". - What is this energy? Is it electromagnetic? atomic? kinetic? - hey man - don't trouble me with details - it's energy innit?

This forum is meant to be about bees in hives, not bees in bonnets

Steve

 

[MandF]

Experiments should be done by impartial people. 1 out of 483 is insiginificant and amounts to noise in the data.

yes and yes.

but thats not what happened - they chose the best result from all the tests and used that to say there was something in dowsing. But even that result, on closer inspection, demonstrates that the result was no better than random.

 

[MandF]

What is this energy? Is it electromagnetic? atomic? kinetic? - hey man - don't trouble me with details - it's energy innit?

If you think about it, when pixies die their auras have to go somewhere...

 

[drstitson]

at CERN they go on 1 in 10^5 basis ie 99.999% likely true, 0.001% down to chance. at moment they are at 1 in 10^3 level for evidence of Higgs Boson.

 

[Storm™]

I have read with interest the open minded tone this thread has. Earlier this year the very same thread began on "another forum" of the same ilk. But far inferior or course admin. The skeptics among you about dowsing and other such methods discussed should perhaps be a little more open minded. Science when quoted as a whole organisation as proof that something is hokum is almost as laughable as people who start a sceptical response with "they say". Who these "they" are is never specified lol.

Science has and is delving - using your monies - into many fringe topics. It is quite astounding actually what you can find on the net. Oh sure you can find a lot of "stuff" but skeptics demand proof. Proof is only as good as the ability of "they", or "scientists" to imagine ways too look for or monitor it.

There is a very (on the face of it) experiment into dowsing. Conducted by someone who's name iludes me. He discovered that magnetism had no effect on how comb was created by bees. So the north south alignment was in his opinion hokum. After placing strong magnets on his hives. The bees did what they liked. However by accident when collecting a swarm it took longer to set off than he intended. When he got them home they had already made quite a bit. He settled them down and left them to it. The comb continued. On inspection he discovered that they had created a bent comb shape instead of straight. Initially the comb on collection began by aligning to some unknown direction. On settling they aligned to the same compass direction but because the position had changed the comb was now bent to the new direction.

Another anomaly is the radial comb you get when bees are placed under a bell jar.

As for the more fringe things that are goin on:

Government research - found on the ministry of defence website where in 2001 to 2002 our government are experimenting in remote viewing. That was stage 1. The control group. 2002 and onwards are the supposed experts. Google it it's there.

The chap doing experiments with water molecules controlled by thought.

Then there is the whole field of quatumn physics. Where things are effected simply by being observed. By being observed their behaviour changes. Just by being looked at. It's all a far too huge a subject to go into here. But look that up to. Scatter effect.

The lines of hokum and real are being blurred daily as "science" becomes better at working out how to look at things.

 

[For want of a better word]

a cubed plus b cubed dose not equal c cubed for a positive interger innit!

 

[For want of a better word]

Fermats birthday today

celebrated by GOOGLE !

 

[gatley]

Should have been E = mc cubed !

 

[For want of a better word]

View attachment 4800

 

[MandF]

fortunately water dowsing is a very simple experiment to run. The experiment I refer to, which you cannot have read, was conclusive in my book. All the people doing the tests thought they could dowse, thought they were dowsing, they were selected as the best dowsers from the initial applicants (who all thought they could dowse).
The tests show the best of the best could not dowse for water.

This isnt a science vs the world debate, science doesnt pretend to know all the answers or pretend that all of the answers it has are necessarily "true". Bees may well be affected by magnetism/ley lines (whatever they are) or underground water courses, noone is really saying they arent, what some of us are saying is that a bloke holding 2 sticks cannot find water any better than a number randomizer. This has been proven. Noone has ever proven, despite the simple test, that they can find water by dowsing. All we have is anecdotal evidence that someone holding dowsing sticks found water.

If they claimed to have faeries whispering to them to point out the water location would you believe them? Even if they had the same success rates, in an experiment, as a dowser?

 

[For want of a better word]

Should have been E = mc cubed !

​

PHILLASTINE !!