Dowsing

[Drew]

"What Randi is saying is that dowsing is not even repeatable/reliable, never mind mankind/science not understanding how it might work"

What Randi is effectively saying is that noone wants to play ball with a retired magician and be ridiculed for their pains (so he is taking that as "scientific proof that it doesn't" - which makes him as big a humbug as he claims others to be)- it proves absolutely nothing at all - on the other hand there are wells all round there world that were found by dowsing - which is strong "anecdotal evidence" that it does work....

The only way they would be ridiculed would be if they can't do what they claim.....

 

[MandF]

"What Randi is saying is that dowsing is not even repeatable/reliable, never mind mankind/science not understanding how it might work"

What Randi is effectively saying is that noone wants to play ball with a retired magician and be ridiculed for their pains (so he is taking that as "scientific proof that it doesn't" - which makes him as big a humbug as he claims others to be)- it proves absolutely nothing at all - on the other hand there are wells all round there world that were found by dowsing - which is strong "anecdotal evidence" that it does work....

If I could dowse I'd "play ball" and earn a million bucks. And I'm pretty sure anyone else who could dowse would.

Apart from earn themselves the money, they will also show up Randi as a "retired magician", so why on earth wouldnt they?!

As I said, one logical conclusion.

I am sure there is strong anecdotal evidence that only seeing 1 magpie can lead to sorrow, but I'm willing to bet a million bucks myself that this is hokum.

For argument sake - these wells people drill to find.. what diameter are they when they hit them? what kind of accuracy on the drilling would be required.. 1 square metre? 5? 20? 200? What kind of research has been done into this?

 

[BBG]

Dont get me wrong BBG, I would be the last person to try and argue wikipedia was a terribly accurate repository of knowledge but I have never seen any evidence to suggest dowsing works.

James Randi has for many years offered a million dollar prize to anyone who can demonstrate such abilities, and it remains unclaimed.

Relevant youtube clip

Agree ref Wik

Both videos were v amateurish and the circle dowser pretty ropey.

Take two wire coat hangers and two Bic biro tubes

Cut coat hangers each into decent lengths 20 or so inches long

Insert each into Bic tubes so that they run freely and bend so that each is at right angles but barely sticking out of the Bic tubes at bottom.

Get them balanced, you'll improve, and with elbows in at sides and rods parallel to the ground while outside - walk slowly.

Don't influence movement in any way.

Walk over known drain or water pipe - should cross - where intersection is allows depth reading (more skill required)

Best let your wife or other female do it a few times and children are always thrilled by the movement.

Why some have no success is a mystery and much talk about not being in tune with the Earth vibrations will ensue.

Try it out several times - go elsewhere to do so. I'm sure it will work for you too.

Others ref the borehole companies - one farmer told me he was asked where would be most convenient for the water to be found - farmer pouinted to corner of field near building - borehole man said "You can just about drill anywhere in the UK and find water after looking at the lay of the land but we use the rods to give value for money sometimes."

What does he know!!!!

 

[Brosville]

You're demanding "research" into something that's been going for a very long time, from when there was no "research" - John Harding himself is so convinced of it's effectiveness that he's trying to get research bodies interested in doing the necessary work to prove it incontrovertibly (which is somewhat more dignified and "scientific" than trying to jump through a retired showman's hoops)
My position is that it may well work - in my own hands the rods appear to react in the same spot as other people, as to quite "how", I haven't the first clue, but I think it's a subject worthy of further experimentation and research - and that we're arrogant and foolish to assume that "science" has all the answers now (it is forever progressing), we should have the humility to live with "don't know how - yet!"

 

[Hivemaker.]

Plenty of things that scientists cannot explain,ccd for one, so they have little hope of discovering how dowsing works at this moment in time. They don't know whats at the end of space/forever/infinity,or what there was in the beginning of everything.

 

[MandF]

Nobody is suggesting science has all the answers, now or otherwise. Stop being so defensive!

If it works, it will be proven scientifically wont it!?

I personally doubt there is any science behind it, because it has been around for years and no-one has yet proven it to work, and as I said there isnt any faith system hooked up with it, so none of that baggage that stops people being objective about it.

I would love it to work, and can actually see some potential scientific explanation (water, magnetic or static electricity etc), but until it is proven I will file it on the hokum shelf.

Dont forget, many people were adamant that crop circles were "real", either visits from aliens or a natural phenomena. And some people STILL believe them to be real even though the people who make them fessed up to it.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

They don't know whats at the end of space/forever/infinity,or what there was in the beginning of everything.

I'd guess wasps

 

[MandF]

And to reiterate, we are not necessarily asking science to EXPLAIN how it works. Just scientific/controlled evidence that it actually works is enough for now.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Plenty of things that scientists cannot explain,ccd for one, so they have little hope of discovering how dowsing works at this moment in time. They don't know whats at the end of space/forever/infinity,or what there was in the beginning of everything.

Science is full of "theories", and they are exactly that.
The big bang "theory" - not yet proven, not yet fully understood.
There's no problem with theories as long as people understand that they are just that - theory not fact.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Big bang theory....so what was before this big bang...it will never be known.

 

[oliver90owner]

"theories",

Yes lots of them about. Some should, correctly, be called 'hypotheses', perhaps. They become theories when they fit the known facts, but other hypotheses may also fit the known facts as well and it only when technology advances that one or the other is proven or disproven.

Even parts of Einsteins Theory of Relativity (bending of light by gravity per eg) were just theory until demonstration was possible many years later. (And, of course, Einstein rewrote Newton's Laws of Motion, but we still use them, just as Newton discovered, because it doesn't make a scrap of difference unless travelling at relativistic speeds (say, above half the velocity of light).) Some might remember when the world was flat and the Earth was at the very centre of the Universe.

RAB

 

[greatbritishhoney]

"theories",

Yes lots of them about. Some should, correctly, be called 'hypotheses', perhaps. They become theories when they fit the known facts, but other hypotheses may also fit the known facts as well and it only when technology advances that one or the other is proven or disproven.

Even parts of Einsteins Theory of Relativity (bending of light by gravity per eg) were just theory until demonstration was possible many years later. (And, of course, Einstein rewrote Newton's Laws of Motion, but we still use them, just as Newton discovered, because it doesn't make a scrap of difference unless travelling at relativistic speeds (say, above half the velocity of light).) Some might remember when the world was flat and the Earth was at the very centre of the Universe.

RAB

I agree Rab. I think we are saying the same thing, although you were clearer than I.
Humanity will, no doubt, make many more discoveries that could not possibility be predicted with our current level of technology. Whether the veracity of dowsing is one of them.....well, we can't predict can we?

 

[gatley]

Then we gathered evidence to propose alternate theories, where is the evidence from dowsing? Purely anecdotal

 

[Nose Ma]

Big bang theory....so what was before this big bang...it will never be known.

Sadly whilst it is a very good and important question, it is a somewhat meaningless/impossible question. As time started just after the "big bang" there was no "before", because there was no time. That makes my head hurt.

As for dowsing - it's a bit like homeopathy. If it works for you, feel free to use it.

Personally I am highly sceptical, having watched a dowser at a relative's farm do his thing. He claimed to never miss, and he had lots of reports from happy customers about how he found water for them. He walked around with his wires, then drilled for water. 200 feet down he found it with a "told you so" look on his face. That's hardly dowsing, it's called a water table. People don't tend to boast about failing, and if you are looking for an event, you will see it and disregard the misses.

The test Randi proposes seems fine to me. He does the mocking bit by way of entertainment, which is uncalled for, but it's his style.

His point was about "unconscious bias". The dowser "knew" where the line was (one step away) and he inadvertently raised his elbows, the rods crossed. He then said that he inspected the area thoroughly beforehand for pipes or water. Had he found water, or the signs for it (which he may well get from experience of seeing how the land lies) he would, consciously or not, cross the wires at that point.

There are several ways to test it. Get a series of fake floors. Under some put a bowl of water. Under others a pipe. Under others nothing at all. Do not tell the dowsers which is which. Have a non-dowser too. Tell the dowsers all the floors have a bucket of water underneath somewhere.

Make sure nobody knows what is under each floor, and get a third party to ask the dowsers to find the water under every floor. It is important that dowsers and the instructors do not know that some floors have no water.

If the dowsers accurately report "no water" and "water" then there is something to be investigated, and I would suggest $1million would be in sight. My guess would be all would report water under every floor, then say "well there must be a pipe or stream under the ground".

Or, why not get a "robot" - just a self levelling frame that can hold dowsing rods. Stand on the ley line (or whatever) put the rods in place - see if they cross. Move somewhere else, try again, see if they cross.

I have no issue with the ability to detect water, but if one claims to be able to do it, one should be able to do it in any circumstance, reliably, and be tested. If one claimed to drive well, I would expect the same.

 

[MandF]

Science is full of "theories", and they are exactly that.
The big bang "theory" - not yet proven, not yet fully understood.
There's no problem with theories as long as people understand that they are just that - theory not fact.

I think you need to understand the difference in the every day meaning of "theory", and a published scientific "theory". They are quite different.

People also need to understand that scientists arent necessarily trying to find "the one truth" and then stick to it, they publish their work so that other scientists can inspect, critique, disprove or improve it.

I guess what I am saying is that some people have a criticism of scientists in that they dismiss everything that cannot be proven by experiment. In fact the opposite is true, they are the ones who question and try and understand - they are the people who are open to scrutiny.

Of course, the current scientific knowledge is built upon the history of man, so if someone claims they can fly by flapping their arms fast, or that the world is flat, they will be dismissed - been there, done that.

Back to dowsing - if its is possible, it would have been scientifically proven.. it isnt a difficult scientific experiment is it?! If it were proven to work, then scientists would try and find out HOW it works.

but if people are happy walking around with a couple of sticks and believe the sticks are finding water - thats fine ;-)

 

[viridens]

Does anyone else remember the Tomorrow’s World program years back (1978?) that showed how to create temporary ley-lines with a 'black box' containing a battery, bulb and some wire, which could then be detected and followed by dowsing? I think they went on to suggest that maybe the ancients had some other way of doing this, and maybe used it for navigation or laying out large structures.

 

[madasafish]

Commercial enerprises are not known to pay nothing for nil results, so if they pay for dowsers...

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I think you need to understand the difference in the every day meaning of "theory", and a published scientific "theory". They are quite different.

I agree MandF.
Perhaps I didn't word my post very well - I wasn't seeking to downplay the importance of scientists and scientific study. I was just making a general point that people often confuse theory with truth. Truth and fact are very abstract concepts and rely almost totally on the level of human understanding at any particular time.
What we call truth today is not the truth of yesterday and may well not be the truth of tomorrow.
This is where "science" is important - it is the tool that allows us to test and explore these theories. But an "unproven" theory is not necessarily wrong, as some would suggest, - simply unproven.

 

[Nose Ma]

Commercial enerprises are not known to pay nothing for nil results, so if they pay for dowsers...

Mind you the banking industry also seems very happy to pay lots to bankers too...

 

[Tom Bick]

Like I have said I am sceptical but want it to be proven to my eyes or at least have some sort of evidence that it exists.

If the dowsers looking and finding water found this water in a low lying field where a good chance of hitting the water table then ok but not so impressive but if they locate an underwater water course up the side of a hillside or in a mountainous region then this will be impressive given that a few feet out and you may as well be three miles out.

I don’t want to but at the moment I place dowsers slightly higher but very close to mediums.