Double brood.

[Hivetool2021]

Hi all

Apologies if there have been posts on a similar question, I have a very prolific queen, currently on 7 frames if brood, 4 which are sealed. They are on a national, and on last inspection a few days ago added a super to allow for extra space, and give the beesa job of drawing the foundation.

What are your triggers to go double brood, as I would rather be ahead if the game, but monitoring they don't back fill with nectar on the remaining frames to cause congestion.
Any tips would be welcome,
Many thanks

 

[B+.]

Hi all

Apologies if there have been posts on a similar question, I have a very prolific queen, currently on 7 frames if brood, 4 which are sealed. They are on a national, and on last inspection a few days ago added a super to allow for extra space, and give the beesa job of drawing the foundation.

What are your triggers to go double brood, as I would rather be ahead if the game, but monitoring they don't back fill with nectar on the remaining frames to cause congestion.
Any tips would be welcome,
Many thanks

When introducing a new queen, the vast majority will be young workers that have never flown before. They accept the queen (hopefully) and she begins to lay eggs. Usually this occurs before the end of July but it's no big deal if you introduce a queen later. It just means she'll have less time to establish her own colony and collect stores for winter.
In my case, I use Langstroth equipment (which provides about 50% more comb area than the standard UK national). I say that only because 7 frames of brood in National is a lot less than I usually deal with. Now, if they are on foundation, they will need sugar-syrup to help them draw out comb to fill that first box. However, if they are given drawn comb, they can expand to fill that box within a few weeks. I wouldn't wait until they became congested. I would give them a second Langstroth deep (filled with comb if I had it) and they would usually pack the second box with naturally occurring stores (honey and pollen) before winter. The cluster will usually be in the lower deep but expand up onto the upper deep (in the middle) as winter progresses. This allows them to escape the cooler temperatures lower down as the warmest part in any hive is usually at the top. Of course, if I have no comb to give them, I'll have to give them foundation and they'll be hampered by the necessity to draw this into comb before they can gather stores (by Sept/Oct there is only ivy available in my area). Consequently, they would need to be fed sugar-syrup. In this scenario, I would leave them in a single box.
Ideally, I like to get them into a double brood configuration and allow them to pack it full of naturally occurring stores before winter. This allows me to take a more "leisurely" approach to my bees in Spring i.e. I don't have to rush around feeding fondant. Wherever possible, I prefer my bees to have natural stores (not sugar-syrup) as winter stores.
This is all a rather long-winded way of saying: it depends on the circumstances. A young mated queen will quickly fill the first box if given the conditions she needs.

 

[jeff33]

I would perhaps argue that 7 frames is not prolific but standard for a queen. What is in the 4 others, stores, empty? How long did it take her to fill the 7 frames?

 

[B+.]

When introducing a new queen, the vast majority will be young workers that have never flown before. They accept the queen (hopefully) and she begins to lay eggs. Usually this occurs before the end of July but it's no big deal if you introduce a queen later. It just means she'll have less time to establish her own colony and collect stores for winter.
In my case, I use Langstroth equipment (which provides about 50% more comb area than the standard UK national). I say that only because 7 frames of brood in National is a lot less than I usually deal with. Now, if they are on foundation, they will need sugar-syrup to help them draw out comb to fill that first box. However, if they are given drawn comb, they can expand to fill that box within a few weeks. I wouldn't wait until they became congested. I would give them a second Langstroth deep (filled with comb if I had it) and they would usually pack the second box with naturally occurring stores (honey and pollen) before winter. The cluster will usually be in the lower deep but expand up onto the upper deep (in the middle) as winter progresses. This allows them to escape the cooler temperatures lower down as the warmest part in any hive is usually at the top. Of course, if I have no comb to give them, I'll have to give them foundation and they'll be hampered by the necessity to draw this into comb before they can gather stores (by Sept/Oct there is only ivy available in my area). Consequently, they would need to be fed sugar-syrup. In this scenario, I would leave them in a single box.
Ideally, I like to get them into a double brood configuration and allow them to pack it full of naturally occurring stores before winter. This allows me to take a more "leisurely" approach to my bees in Spring i.e. I don't have to rush around feeding fondant. Wherever possible, I prefer my bees to have natural stores (not sugar-syrup) as winter stores.
This is all a rather long-winded way of saying: it depends on the circumstances. A young mated queen will quickly fill the first box if given the conditions she needs.

EDIT: my over-wintered colonies currently occupy a 20 Langstroth frame brood area and are pushing up to the 3rd deep (I use only Langstroth deeps) and it has been a very poor spring with no osr being grown nearby. I would expect them to have filled at least 3 deeps by now in a "normal" season.
Older, more established colonies have 3-4 deeps already.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I would perhaps argue that 7 frames is not prolific but standard for a queen.

nothing impressive about that, time for a super yes, but nothing else

 

[user 819]

Wall to wall solid good brood allowing for some pollen and stores, if she was prolific she would have laid that already.
I would say your Q is run of the mill, by the time she has laid up another couple of frames likely you will find the sealed has well and truly started to emerge and space again will be free.

Prolific layers will have been DB'd or Dem'd by now.

 

[Worker bee]

Hi all

Apologies if there have been posts on a similar question, I have a very prolific queen, currently on 7 frames if brood, 4 which are sealed. They are on a national, and on last inspection a few days ago added a super to allow for extra space, and give the beesa job of drawing the foundation.

What are your triggers to go double brood, as I would rather be ahead if the game, but monitoring they don't back fill with nectar on the remaining frames to cause congestion.
Any tips would be welcome,
Many thanks

If you look under the brood at dusk and see 8 or more frames of bees then look in the super and they cover about 8 frames or more it needs another brood because you would have four ready to hatch. But at the moment I'd put it under the full box until it warms up a little, then I'd swap it and put it below the super. You can always remove one frame that's hatched and swap it for a blank a few frames in and drop it into the blank box to get them to draw it faster and it will give them something to draw. You need that heat up top though at the moment so don't do it unless they are going to be bursting in a week

 

[user 819]

Hivetool I doubt will have enough bees to cover 8 super frames yet, as it is they still have possibly 2 or 3 more brood frames to go yet. With the cooler nights still they might still be loosely clustering.

Re the back filling only you will know what flow is occurring and the forage incoming, see how quickly they draw out the super.

 

[enrico]

If you decide to double brood add it under the present one. They will use it if they need it as long as you provide enough supers at the right time. If they don't need it they won't use it!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you decide to double brood add it under the present one. They will use it if they need it as long as you provide enough supers at the right time. If they don't need it they won't use it!

They'll often ignore it if put underneath, and just swarm

 

[user 819]

The Q with current cool weather will go up rather then down to lay where the warmth will be, once the brood is spread over two boxes and enough bees to keep all warm and the colony then she will go where she wants.

 

[ericbeaumont]

They'll often ignore it if put underneath, and just swarm

And if you put it on top, they'll just as likely use it as super.

When they're ready, try this: put four frames of openish brood in the centre of the top box. Condense the remaining brood into the centre of the bottom box. Add combs or foundation either side to fill, and re-assemble.

This method keeps the nest as one unit, provides heat for the open brood in the top box and allows for lateral expansion. Most usefully, it brings nurse bees up and deters them turning the top box into a super.

Hemo's warning is timely: if there's no flow then you may need to feed to keep the queen laying and give fuel for wax production. Where are you?

Although you're right to keep ahead of the game, I agree with Jeff & JBM: 7 frames of brood sounds a little early to go double.

 

[Swarm]

I simply lift three central frames and push the rest together underneath. My queens don't need twenty two frames so I dummy them to the size they need. I find nine over nine is ideal for my queens and much nicer than 14x12 or brood and a half.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And if you put it on top, they'll just as likely use it as super.

If you use that pretty weak argument, if you put it underneath they will use the top one as a super, quickly run out of space and swarm.
But if the new box is on top, as soon as they draw it, the queen will be up there laying, any beekeeper worth their salt would preempt them 'using it as a super' by putting on a super for them to use.

 

[ericbeaumont]

as soon as they draw it

Some years ago I had both results: either full of nectar or full of eggs, but the uncertain outcome put the bees in charge and I'd prefer to limit their options.

Yes, super(s) will be on but on strong flow, and bees being bees, sometimes they'll use the super and the top brood for nectar.

 

[Worker bee]

They'll often ignore it if put underneath, and just swarm

True its going to be a bad month for swarming this year. I've got to get in mine every three days rain or shine. They need splitting asap

If you use that pretty weak argument, if you put it underneath they will use the top one as a super, quickly run out of space and swarm.
But if the new box is on top, as soon as they draw it, the queen will be up there laying, any beekeeper worth their salt would preempt them 'using it as a super' by putting on a super for them to use.

They will use it and draw it if it's sandwiched inbertwen a drawn super and a drawn brood but then if its warm enough to put it up top I'd start to checkerboard the brood boxes. By start I mean a few frames at a time. It soon gets drawn and if you do start to get hony bound add more supers. They need lots of frames to pull it in then get it up top. But the most valuable bit of kit in a beekeepers kit is drawn frames. If we had daytime temps of 20c plus I'd checkerboard the lot. Next week fingers crossed 18c. I'll have splits out of my hives and I'll get the frames drawn in a week I replaced. Rain or shine tomorrow mine are getting split, queen cells don't wait

 

[rolande]

But the most valuable bit of kit in a beekeepers kit is drawn frames

Second most important, perhaps. First is brains.

 

[Worker bee]

Second most important, perhaps. First is brains.

Indeed beekeeping is a ballencing act and the difference between 12c and 18c is wide and even more so the difference in 18c and a consistent temperature of 20c to 26c

 

[rolande]

Indeed beekeeping is a ballencing act and the difference between 12c and 18c is wide and even more so the difference in 18c and a consistent temperature of 20c to 26c

Big difference between opening hives every three days and actually getting on top of the situation too

 

[Worker bee]

Big difference between opening hives every three days and actually getting on top of the situation too

Depends how you deal with it and how you check hives. Big difference in lifting a brood and going through every frame. I'm on top of my hives 100% also big diffence in one brood and three. If I was on one brood this time of the year I'd do something about it because something is wrong or I have a bad queen. Unless I restrict her to one box but why would I do that with a good laying queen? 10 capped brood is better than four. No need to restrict queens to a single brood your just suppressing her natural ability to lay. If you look at my posts you will see how to get a full brood box drawn in two weeks even with this cxppy weather