double brood - top or bottom

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keith pierce

Field Bee
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
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Location
ireland
Hive Type
National
I have a couple of hives that are getting strong and I want to put on a double brood box so I can get the bees numbers up and then do a few splits. I haven't done it that much before and any time I have done so I have but the second brood box on top of the original. I was talking to a Romanian beekeeper last night and he said that they put the second brood box on the bottom and let the bees work down. I can see the point in this as its keeps all the heat in the original brood box and not letting it up into the empty brood box.
Any options on which is the correct procedure.
 
IMHO it depends on outside factors:-

Warm weather and a strong nectar flow - box on top, the bees will quickly draw it as a honey storage area.

Cool weather and not much nectar about - box under to maintain heat in the existing brood area.

Your call:)
 
They have a late season young queen and are on about 9 frames of commercial brood. Combs are fully drawn out in the second brood box and the main reason is for maximum bees to replace winter losses and any extra honey would be a bonus.
 
I have done this few weeks ago when we had that warm snap , put under and put floor back in for couple of weeks and feed 1.1 one pint only , just to get started , both quit full now , keep eye on them for stores as bees increase will need boost ,but not over feeding , only leave floor in for short time to heat up excessive space . you should already know with 40 hives ?
 
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Why not lift a few brood combs up into the second and backfill with comb, Keith?

Similar to Checker boarding both chambers.

Not always wise to split the brood nest with undrawn comb unless the colony is strong or there is a good nectar flow on at the time near by. But moving some stores / part filled frames up will be fine.
 
They have a late season young queen and are on about 9 frames of commercial brood. Combs are fully drawn out in the second brood box and the main reason is for maximum bees to replace winter losses and any extra honey would be a bonus.

As you say there is drawn comb then put the box below.

If it was just foundation then I would put it above.

IMHO
 
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Have done this 50 years but 30 years ago I noticed that colony may loose 30% of its brood if I put a new box over the brood box and bees are not able keep brood warm. Weathers may be what ever during next 2 weeks.
1#
So I put new box under the brood. When bees have occupied 50% of it, and it has quite much brood, i swap the boxes to hinder swarming. This makes combs free from old winter stores and frames will be consumed evenly.

2# if there are store frames in recent brood box, you may move them to lower box in the middle of box. Then foundation in upper box instead to hinder swarming.

3#
if you put foundations, give dark combs in the middle. It invites bees to use lower box. If they do not do it, they are not ready to occupye 2 boxes. If day temps rises, suddenly they may fill the box.
 
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Have done this 50 years but 30 years ago I noticed that colony may loose 30% of its brood if I put a new box over the brood box and bees are not able keep brood warm. Weathers may be what ever during next 2 weeks.
1#
So I put new box under the brood. When bees have occupied 50% of it, and it has quite much brood, i swap the boxes to hinder swarming. This makes combs free from old winter stores and frames will be consumed evenly.
......................

Walt Wright wrote an article giving his experience of brood box reversal and makes the observation that it can, dependent on location, cause a halt to brood expansion for two to three weeks and that this may be the factor which causes it to have an effect on swarming - at a price. http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/spring-reversal-not-good-management-for-all-areas/

Currently, I would tend to wait until the brood boxes are fully occupied and then if the weather is cool use an insulated dummy and increase the area gradually (usually by ~ 40% to start) bringing up sealed brood and possibly a frame of stores. In polyhives and with trickle feeding from a well insulated contact feeder they will expand up into the box rapidly.
 
Currently, I would tend to wait until the brood boxes are fully occupied and then if the weather is cool use an insulated dummy and increase the area gradually (usually by ~ 40% to start) bringing up sealed brood and possibly a frame of stores. In polyhives and with trickle feeding from a well insulated contact feeder they will expand up into the box rapidly.

i live here in cold climate and I should take care of hive shilling

i do not understand your dummy idea?

When the empty box is under brood box, the heat stays upstairs. Like in natural hives brooding starts up and goes downstairs. Bees have those instincts.

Contact feeding? Just now bees have lots of food in nature.

Bees expand rapidly if they have much brood which emerge.
And brood cycle is 3 weeks.

I cannot understand how syrup feeding can add emerging brood.

.you have really strange systems in UK.

What I have learned is
- heat and insulation helps colony to expand brood area.
- feeding and food frames reduce the warm area where brooding is favourable.
- electrict heating speed up colony growth in spring. In 2 box hive queen comes easily downstairs to lay when floor is warm.

- when I move a hive to outer pastures and I take heating off, it is easy to see how weak hives at home buid up faster with heating.

- all kind of heat leak holes upstairs makes build up slower.(=feeding box)

. When my hives start to expand at the beginning of June, I add every week one box more. I am not able to move dummy board. Expansion is so fast.

.remember. We had two feet snow 5 weeks ago and first pollen from nature came 2 weeks ago (3.5) first dandelions are now open. Salix alba started blooming.

.

.
 
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Yes, lots of food in nature and currently (and for the past month) there is around one foraging day per week. Hot air rises ( no not you! :D) and if I want a quick expansion in the unseasonally cool conditions prevailing then logic suggests well insulated space above the brood nest is more attractive than cooler conditions below. I am also getting foundation drawn with this setup and for this, and for the additional brood stimulation, an uninterrupted (very low rate of) artificial nectar flow is optimum. The colony is providing the heat and I provide the insulation - the logistics of getting reptile warmers to all the hives is beyond me. :svengo:
 
I am also getting foundation drawn with this setup and for this, and for the additional brood stimulation, an uninterrupted (very low rate of) artificial nectar flow is optimum. The colony is providing the heat and I provide the insulation - the logistics of getting reptile warmers to all the hives is beyond me. :svengo:

wow! You handle all beekeeping problems just feeding syrup. No wonder that pals are feeding hives the whole year around. I am just taking extra winterfood off that hives have space to lay.
 
wow! You handle all beekeeping problems just feeding syrup. No wonder that pals are feeding hives the whole year around. I am just taking extra winterfood off that hives have space to lay.

From the hive heating thread yesterday ...

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Just now I have heaters in my hives. It helps hives to keep larger brood area.

New bees have started to emerge after winter but colonies are very small.
I move capped brood frames to small hives and heating keeps brood alive.

We have warm days but nights are cold.

There is no one formula to follow - all depends on the hive state, weather, season, objectives etc.. Timing is everything.
 

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