Double brood - National hives

[louiseww]

My bees were going really well by the end of March and had eight frames of brood but no signs of queen cells or drone brood so I put them onto double brood to provide more space. They have now moved up into the second box with a full frame of brood and drawing out several other frames. However - the two boxes are sticking together, so difficult to check the bottom box without massive disturbance, any suggestions please? I had wondered about making a small eke, to stop me from squashing bees when returning top box and to stop them from joining up the frames. Thanks Louise

 

[REDWOOD]

A thin smear of vasaline where the boxes meet but don't get any on the inside, you only need to tilt the top box and have a peek for queen cell and usually they will be on the bottom of the frames on the top box

 

[Erichalfbee]

Could you rotate the top box 90˚

 

[drstitson]

several things to do.

1. check beespace in the boxes.
2. check frame spacing/format
3. rotate 1 box by 90 degrees wrt the other.

so long as you have correct bee space problems should be minimised.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

If you make an eke it won't help as the bees will fill up the space with comb. There should be a bee space between the bottom of the top frames and the top of the bottom frames. Bees are not supposed to fill up the bee space. Some hives are less than perfect and have a space that's too small or too large.

What make of hive have you got? Reputable ones will be fine. Some ebay hives, for example, have the dimensions wrong and are, frankly, shocking!

 

[drstitson]

"I had wondered about making a small eke, to stop me from squashing bees when returning top box and to stop them from joining up the frames."

NOOOOOO!

unless you have accidently used a TBS brood on top of a BBS brood then eke (8-9mm) will make problem worse not better.

rotate 1 box and check beespace.

 

[Finman]

.
Boxes can be aparted normally when you twist a knife of what ever tool.
It they are stuck togetger, they have glued the frames together with wax = burr.

Don't use vaselin.

As allready mentioned above, measure the gap between upper and lower box frames.

When you have douple brood, you need not normally inspect the lower box.
It is enough when you look the upper box. If bees make swarm cells, they make them into upper box frames too if they have them in lower box.

 

[REDWOOD]

.


Don't use vaselin.

As allready mentioned above, measure the gap between upper and lower box frames.

I was to believe that vasaline stopped bees gluing up boxes if they use a lot of propolis, Found this on the Dave Cushman web page !

 

[Nic Rhodes]

an 'extra long' hive tool can give you more liverage. I have a 40cm one to help in these situations. Make sure your bee space is correct and forget the idea of an eke.

 

[itma]

Are both bb's standard bottom beespace?
Some clever clogs build them as top beespace.
Its not so clever when they get mixed up.

There should be a beespace under the frames (and not above the top bars) on both brood boxes.
So you shouldn't need an eke to avoid squashing bees ...

I don't like using double or brood and a half ... because of all the faffing.

 

[nonstandard]

.

Don't use vaselin.

Why? I use vaseline on all mating surfaces (steady ) in the hive, including the rebates where the frame lugs rest and have never had any problems.

 

[Finman]

.
I was to believe that vasaline stopped bees gluing up boxes if they use a lot of propolis, Found this on the Dave Cushman web page !

It is burr between frames.
When honey combs are full, bees often make wax structures between frames and between cover and frames. That is why professionals use often plastic between inner cover and frames.

.

 

[oliver90owner]

to stop them from joining up the frames.

You may finding that once done they will continue.

One requirement, if the bee space is correct is to clean all the comb off at inspection to return the bee space. That means tops and bottoms of frames, Cleaning the top bar only may well leave less than a bee space, so they just join it up again. Not many people think of that.

 

[louiseww]

Thank you everyone for you great advice (as usual) I will forget the eke idea and check the beespace, these two brood boxes are from different manufacturers, one is a Thornes and the other from Caddon hives, they are both bottom space and the frames at the top are sitting on runners and flat to the top of the hive. Will have to grab the bees by the tail and sort it! Do bees always build their queen cells at he bottom of the top brood box? Someone checked this for me last year when I was ill and couldn't see any, they swarmed the next day - so I am not convinced that this is sufficient. Lots to think about here Thank you so much everyone! Louise

 

[Tom Bick]

Louise as regards the squashing of bees when replacing the top bb and or even supers come to that.

Get yourself a wedge of wood say 4” long and 1” down to 0

You place this wedge central on one side of the bottom bb then lift the 2nd bb and position it on the opposite side to the wedge and then lower it onto the wedge.

You can then gently smoke the bees out of the way and slowly pull the wedge out and under control lower the top bb.

 

[Finman]

to stop them from joining up the frames.

You may finding that once done they will continue.

.

Some colonies make burr more and some not at all.
Some make horizontal bridges between combs. it is a nuisance.

But such are bees. They never learn.

 

[Finman]

.
If the burr is very tight, you must take off/loosen the frames one by one.

 

[oliver90owner]

You missed my point, Finman. Must be the diffgerence between Finland and the UK.

I said if there is comb on the bottoms of the frames it must be cleaned off to avoid the simple joining up again; to leave a complete bee space all the way along the frames.

Not done and there may well be sections already on the bottom of the upper frames touching, or almost touching the top bars of the bottom box, so an incomplete bee space along the length of the frames.

 

[drstitson]

very good point rab and one probably overlooked by most (except when it comes to swapping boxes around, when free comb above the floor is encountered, or adding a QE or board between brood boxes for AS or queen rearing purposes).

proper frames, properly spaced in correctly sized and assembled boxes should minimise problems. any deviation from this will lead to problems - and that includes bits of burr comb left anywhere it shouldn't be.

a perfect set up should stay more or less perfect; a suboptimal setup will remain so unless stripped back to completely clean correct starting set up.

 

[itma]

I noted an earlier suggestion to rotate the top box by 90°.

Shouldn't attention be paid to having the frames in the top box aligned with those in the lower box? I've seen (brace comb) problems with people running brood-and-a-half with non-Hoffman frames in the shallow and a different number of frames in the upper and lower BBs.

Isn't the idea to simulate larger frames (preserving alignment), or could a deliberate misalignment actually be helpful in reducing between-box comb?