Double brood - National hives

[Spadaman]

Do bees always build their queen cells at he bottom of the top brood box?

I have seen this mentioned lots of times when people are talking about double brood / Brood + 1/2 . But, like you, I have seen queen cells all over the frame not just on the bottom , however this was on single brood only. Perhaps someone could say whether a double brood is different to the bees than a single brood? Could be something to do with warmth i.e. being warmer in the middle.

 

[itma]

... Do bees always build their queen cells at he bottom of the top brood box? ...

I believe the famous quote is "Invariably, bees do nothing invariably."

Thats supposed to be the most likely place, thus, if you can only make a brief check, its the most productive place to search in your few precious seconds!

Its probably the least disruptive place for the bees to make one or more long droopy QCs. And being somewhere near the middle of the brood nest on a double brood box hive, it'll be nicely consistently warm. I wonder whether guaranteed warmth in the centre of the brood might be why Autumn, cooler weather, supercedure QCs are often to be found towards the middle of a frame?

 

[Cazza]

I noted an earlier suggestion to rotate the top box by 90°.

Shouldn't attention be paid to having the frames in the top box aligned with those in the lower box? I've seen (brace comb) problems with people running brood-and-a-half with non-Hoffman frames in the shallow and a different number of frames in the upper and lower BBs.

Isn't the idea to simulate larger frames (preserving alignment), or could a deliberate misalignment actually be helpful in reducing between-box comb?

I have been rotating mine and find it is a little easier to split them when required.

USUALLY you only need to inspect the top box BUT sometimes qc's are built in the lower one. A gamble!
Cazza

 

[enrico]

I noted an earlier suggestion to rotate the top box by 90°.

Shouldn't attention be paid to having the frames in the top box aligned with those in the lower box? I've seen (brace comb) problems with people running brood-and-a-half with non-Hoffman frames in the shallow and a different number of frames in the upper and lower BBs.

Isn't the idea to simulate larger frames (preserving alignment), or could a deliberate misalignment actually be helpful in reducing between-box comb?

I have all my double broods at right angles. I only get a small amount of brace comb but the beauty is when you pull up a frame from the top bb it doesn't pull up the frame below it as often happens if the frames are aligned. Bees in the wild build comb at all angles so they don't mind the fact that the comb changes direction. They cope with it perfectly well. Try it on one hive and you will be surprised how much easier it is to inspect the top bb or the split the top bb from the bottom. When putting it back always place the top bb at forty five degrees across the bottom bb so there are four places of contact, one on each side. Gently turn the box so it lines up at right angles. In this way you squash less bees and the bottom of the box you are putting on pushes the bees out of the way rather than squashing them. The less brace comb you have between the two bb's makes this work even better.
Hope this helps!

 

[itma]

Round this way everyone seems to have been taught to replace with a twist, rather than using wedges. Twisting is the way to go (even if there are 8, not 4, points of contact!)

I personally really would rather avoid multi-brood, but it is very intriguing to learn that the unconventional way (crossed frames) seems easier to work.

 

[mbc]

I have my double brood hives with the frames aligned, and yes, this does mean that you have to separate the frames between the top and bottom boxes with your hive tool sometimes, but I feel its worth it as this is very easy anyway and the bees seem to do better with the frames aligned. Inspections can be incredibly quick using the "tilt" method.

 

[Finman]

Could be something to do with warmth i.e. being warmer in the middle.

that is their favorit place. Under the comb they have free space to build long finger like cells.

It is same in the super. Queen cells are under the comb.

If you make a hole into the comb, they like to do queen cells in a free space.

 

[Meg]

Enrico, you mention not pulling up the frame below if the top box is at 90 degrees. For you and anyone else regardless of which way the boxes are, don't you remove the upper brood box and inspect the bottom one first? This would mean the frames are already separated so no problems when you get to the top box.

The reason for doing the bottom box first is fewer bees. If you disturb the upper box first, then you send loads down below or into the air and they will head back for the entrance so you have more in the bottom box. A pain in the ***e!

Meg

 

[drstitson]

"For you and anyone else regardless of which way the boxes are, don't you remove the upper brood box and inspect the bottom one first? This would mean the frames are already separated so no problems when you get to the top box."

Meg - the problem is the bottom frames pulling up when separating the boxes in the first place, whether for a full inspection or to look for QCs. removing frames from top box in situ less of an issue as the box ends stop combs below lifting far.

plus - if not smoked from top then queen likely to be upstairs so top box only needs inspecting in many cases.

 

[enrico]

Thanks Dr.....exactly
E

 

[mbc]

Enrico, you mention not pulling up the frame below if the top box is at 90 degrees. For you and anyone else regardless of which way the boxes are, don't you remove the upper brood box and inspect the bottom one first? This would mean the frames are already separated so no problems when you get to the top box.

The reason for doing the bottom box first is fewer bees. If you disturb the upper box first, then you send loads down below or into the air and they will head back for the entrance so you have more in the bottom box. A pain in the ***e!

Meg

If you need to find the queen or do a full brood insection for whatever reason then this has to be the most sensible approach, if you dont need to find the queen or look at each and every brood frame then a "tilt" and a quick look is enough to tell you all you need.

 

[enrico]

I don't dispute that....depends what I'm doing, but even removing the top bb is easier at right angles, you don't have to get your hive tool underneath to prise the bottom frame off the top frame, at this point you have already lifted the bottom frame and it goes crashing back into the bottom bb . By tilting the top bb at right angles it generally frees the top frames from the bottom so much easier. IMHO anyway!

 

[Meg]

Fair enough. I was considering a full inspection of all combs and not just lifting lower frames when taking the upper box off. In which case I would go back to what someone posted earlier about keeping everything as clean as possible of extra comb and double checking bee space particularly on old equipment. I know plenty of mine is a bit iffy and some could do with a a thin strip added as they have got battered and worn over the years.

Meg

 

[Hivemaker.]

I have all my double broods at right angles.

Good job you don't run Langstroth hives.

 

[REDWOOD]

It is burr between frames.
When honey combs are full, bees often make wax structures between frames and between cover and frames. That is why professionals use often plastic between inner cover and frames.

.

Thanks Finman

 

[drstitson]

Enrico: "I have all my double broods at right angles."
HM: "Good job you don't run Langstroth hives."

Well i'm currently running a LS hive and super with frames at 90 degrees to each other and when it gets promoted to double brood the same will apply brood wise.

answers on a postcard.....

 

[exmoorbee]

Enrico: "I have all my double broods at right angles."
HM: "Good job you don't run Langstroth hives."

Well i'm currently running a LS hive and super with frames at 90 degrees to each other and when it gets promoted to double brood the same will apply brood wise.

answers on a postcard.....

how many frames fo you ls hives take? 12? am i on the right lines