Does foundation matter?

[Sutty]

I wonder if they would take that dark wax for exchange if you melted it down?!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

ah, premier. their premier foundation is all wax 'British' sourced from British beekeepers who bring their wax to be exchanged at the BBKA spring convention, NHS and now at the Telford trade show, the trouble is, the majority of people who exchange at Thornes are the ones who have the time to save up every little scraping and manky brace comb from their hives and re render the most aged and black old brood combs, then roughly rendered down and brought to the conventions. I remember the lads at the Maisemores wax exchange at the tradex comment on this years ago

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I wonder if they would take that dark wax for exchange if you melted it down?!

where do you think Thornes got it from in the first place?

 

[Sutty]

where do you think Thornes got it from in the first place?

That's what I was wondering! I thought they refused wax that dark, but if they're selling it they probably accepted some even darker stuff that got mixed in!

 

[bpmurray]

save up every little scraping and manky brace comb from their hives and re render the most aged and black old brood combs, then roughly rendered down and brought to the conventions.

The state of some of the wax being exchanged was quite shocking - they discounted the exchange rate for these. I always run mine through weed cloth and that does a pretty good job, certainly clean enough for exchange.

 

[The Poot]

View attachment 39169
OK, black was an exaggeration - I felt it was much too dark when I looked at it last. Now I see it's not almost black, but rather coffee-coloured, still much too dark. The one on the right is from last year and it's classed as "standard" while the dark stuff is classed "premier". To my eye, the wax on the right is clean while the stuff on the left is similar to what I might get on a first pass when cleaning it. The wax I swapped looked cleaner and was the colour of the wax on the right. Perhaps I've missed something, but I have always thought of wax as being yellow, not brown.

Wouldn’t it be worth sending this photo to Thornes for comment? I’d be interested in any reply you receive.

 

[Swarm]

I have a pack of partly used premier, it's nearly twenty years old, it's the same colour. I can't remember if there was any issue with the few sheets I used but I didn't use the rest and I've not bought any since.

 

[xray7]

I was told that Thorne's standard foundation is produced from imported beeswax from China which comes in by the container load and premier is produced from British wax.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I was told that Thorne's standard foundation is produced from imported beeswax from China which comes in by the container load and premier is produced from British wax.

Who told you? Thorne?

 

[Anduril]

Who told you? Thorne?

This is from their website:

Premier beeswax is manufactured at Rand. It is top quality foundation blended from the finest British, European and East African beeswax. It is foundation which has been manufactured by Thornes for almost 50 years and on which we base our reputation as being the leading manufacturer of beeswax foundation in the UK.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I was told that Thorne's standard foundation is produced from imported beeswax from China which comes in by the container load and premier is produced from British wax.

"We have been manufacturing beeswax sheets for over 60 years. Available in two grades, Premier and Standard. Premier is our top quality wax blended from the finest British, European and African beeswax. Standard comes from a variety of sources. "

I would doubt that Thornes would deliberately supply directly from China...... too much of a black mark on their reputation if it got out.

 

[Newbeeneil]

This is from their website:

Premier beeswax is manufactured at Rand. It is top quality foundation blended from the finest British, European and East African beeswax. It is foundation which has been manufactured by Thornes for almost 50 years and on which we base our reputation as being the leading manufacturer of beeswax foundation in the UK.

You beat me to it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would doubt that Thornes would deliberately supply directly from China...... too much of a black mark on their reputation if it got out.

Exactly and posting hearsay is a bit daft @xray7

 

[Anduril]

It also states:
Premier wax is a blend of British and Irish beeswax. Standard wax is imported beeswax. We never add anything to our beeswax.
They do sell dyed black foundation to those who state they can see eggs better with it.

 

[bpmurray]

I was contacted by Thornes who were understandably interested in heading off this discussion. As pointed out above, it appears that the usual "standard" wax is indeed from China and I have used this often enough to know that it works well and doesn't seem to have any negative impact on the bees, and I am sure there are folk here who have had the same experience. The wax I was concerned about, the "premier" darker sheets that I got in exchange, they say is made from wax from the UK, Ireland and Africa: apparently the latter is from hives in areas where there is very little (if any) pesticide use or polluting industries. There was also an emphasis on how it's only heated gently. I'm happy to take them at their word, especially when it was pointed out that the bees love this wax. Being a parsimonious beekeeper (like everyone else) I'll use this wax and am interested in seeing how the bees respond. Thornes were too and asked to be informed about the success of this wax.

Just in comparison, I have seen Donegal Bees production of wax: it's heated to 150C during the cleaning process, and then pushed through the rollers to produce the wax. The heat doesn't appear to cause any problems with the wax and the bees are happy to work it and it smells gorgeous, although I hasten to point out that since I'm not a bee, that's probably irrelevant. So Thornes not heating the wax isn't really something I would consider particularly important.

So, as far as I'm concerned, this wax will be used in my Spring Demarees, and I'll know fairly soon how good it is in practice.

 

[Mint Bee]

try heating wax upto 150C for making candles and see the difference between that and and candles made at the recommended temperature of 58 to 74C (from my wax melting thermometer). BP, I think you might mean 150F ca 65C to avoid any nasty incidences with wax

 

[bpmurray]

try heating wax upto 150C for making candles and see the difference between that and and candles made at the recommended temperature of 58 to 74C (from my wax melting thermometer). BP, I think you might mean 150F ca 65C to avoid any nasty incidences with wax

Nope - it's definitely 150C. When I make candles, I don't use high temps, but that wax I referred to is absolutely fine.

 

[Antipodes]

I'm going to heat some pure beeswax (of my own...from cappings) up to 150c for half an hour and pour it out into a mold to see if there is any colour difference. Just as an experiment. I'll post photos.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I'm going to heat some pure beeswax (of my own...from cappings) up to 150c for half an hour and pour it out into a mold to see if there is any colour difference. Just as an experiment. I'll post photos.

Wiki suggests it will discolour over 85 degrees and watch that flashpoint!

“Beeswax has a relatively low melting pointrange of 62 to 64 °C (144 to 147 °F). If beeswax is heated above 85 °C (185 °F) discoloration occurs. The flash point of beeswax is 204.4 °C (400 °F).[8]”

 

[Antipodes]

Wiki suggests it will discolour over 85 degrees and watch that flashpoint!

“Beeswax has a relatively low melting pointrange of 62 to 64 °C (144 to 147 °F). If beeswax is heated above 85 °C (185 °F) discoloration occurs. The flash point of beeswax is 204.4 °C (400 °F).[8]”

Ok. Thanks

The experiment has concluded.

Here is the photo. The beeswax is fresh cappings wax from leatherwood and manuka honey from the forest. It's probably amongst the finest wax in the world.

Only two of the blocks in the photo have been heated to 150c in my newish fan forced electric oven for 30 minutes (which time started only once they were melted). The other blocks were more gently heated, on an earlier day, at below 85c.

Which ones are the two highly heated blocks?