Do you have VSH Queens

[Markthebuilder]

You can look from a map, how much VSH sellers are in the USA. They are all located in the southern parts of the country. They are hundreds.

First in Finland we must have a colony, which stay alive in our climate. Cold is not only factor, the colony must react to the end of summer and the beginning of spring.

do you have known non treatment beekeepers in Finland that claim their bees do well produce honey and survive etc

if so perhaps these colony’s have naturally developed vsh which woul give you and others a starting point

don’t know if this helps

https://www.beeculture.com/varroa-resistant-bees-get-1-million-in-norway/

 

[Finman]

do you have known non treatment beekeepers in Finland


don’t know if It helps/[/URL]

Mark, you repeat 20 years old stories
.
But It really helps.

I had 25 years ago Elgon bees.

 

[Boston Bees]

do you have known non treatment beekeepers in Finland that claim their bees do well produce honey and survive etc

Finman has told us in another thread that he doesn't really have any information on other beekeepers in Finland. I assume there isn't a "Finland Beekeepers Forum" or anything like that. I guess that's why he hangs out with us

 

[Finman]

'senior' forum members.
Don't say things like that it gives them delusions of grandeur

Personally, I would prefer to work with the bees in my area to deal with the problems in my area.

What kind of problems your area have, what bees resolve?

 

[Finman]

Finman has told us in another thread that he doesn't really have any information on other beekeepers in Finland. I assume there isn't a "Finland Beekeepers Forum" or anything like that. I guess that's why he hangs out with us

I hang here to practicise English language. Nothing to learn here in beekeeping. And English beeks tell, that nothing to learn from me. English beekeepers insist that they have different climate, cold winters and Hot summers.... extremely hardy endemic bees.
.

 

[Boston Bees]

I hang here to practicise English language.

Good stuff.

Keep at it!

 

[Markthebuilder]

Mark, you repeat 20 years old stories
.
But It really helps.

I had 25 years ago Elgon bees.

I understood this was new money for new research in 2022-2023

 

[Finman]

I understood this was new money for new research in 2022-2023

You mean new hope...
I cannot see any sense, if you are going to follow, what guys are going to do. If they get any results, perhaps I am interested about It.

These discussions about mite killing bees has continued in Internet 20 years.

 

[Erichalfbee]

English beekeepers insist that they have different climate, cold winters and Hot summers.... extremely hardy endemic bees.
.

Yes those are the black ones. My orange ones are obviously useless. I’ll have to tell them that.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Mark,

I am interested in your proposition, and somewhat disheartened by the current response by some others, including mods and other 'senior' forum members.

I started beekeeping a long time after varroa made its entrance into the UK. Nonetheless, I speak to many older beekeepers who - back then - experienced totally devastating losses as a result of the mite. Obviously, varroa is still a very large issue, not least as high loads will inevitably serve as a vector for viruses etc...

That said, I would wager that, nowadays, most of us could move to a nigh-on 'treatment free' regime, and get our bees through the winter, and probably through another couple of years, before the related disease load took an ultimate toll. I have (and have had) colonies not only surviving, but thriving, in spite of very heavy mite loads...... though I appreciate it's not ideal, and will ultimately (whenever) lead to the bees' demise.

So I treat; as most of us do (and should).

However, given the point that varroa is here to stay, the more profound issue here is that we need to accept that the two organisms need to co-evolve; indeed, I think most would concede that, over the previous 20, 30, 40 years there has already been co-evolution to the point that honeybees in the UK can *generally* tolerate varroa, to a degree. In fact, let's face it.. over those timelines, it's not evolution, it's adaptation.

VSH bees are clearly better adapted, so why wouldn't a beekeeper seek to introduce those VSH genes to improve their stock ? Why should we (as you suggest) NOT be promoting this ?

So, to the thrust of your question … Is there a tangible benefit to keeping VSH bees ? What does it achieve ?

To mbc's point that, if you go down this (VSH) route, you need to constantly keep on top of the genes to make sure the traits are not being diluted over time ... well, I guess that's about regression, and is probably a fair point.

Nonetheless, take humans out of the equation; whichever way you spin the coin, co-evolution/VSH traits are the ONLY way that bees will cope with the endemic mite going forward. That is an almost inarguable point. You can fight it with all your toxic Amitraz etc... but the bees will need to have evolved a coping mechanism long after we have gone.

For me, it (the underlying philosophy) forms one of the key discussions about how we manage our bees over the next few decades.

So, it's therefore more than a little disappointing to see how mods (and other similar senior members, recent mods) respond to you as OP.

Emyr - your first comment seems to basically say, "you're welcome to your opinion, but please stick it up your arse"

Dani - of all things, you sit tight and then take umbrage at spelling (“pupi”/”pupae”), when I thought this place was a ‘broader church’ than that, and lots of spelling and grammatical errors are (rightly, nowadays) permitted to flow ... I don't see you asking who (other Mark) Curly Green is fingering, as his name suggests ??

Disappointing and passive aggressive.

I personally think Mark's musings on VSH Queens/colonies warrant proper discussion.

Or have I missed something on VSH Queens ?? Are they actually the spawn of satan ?

Please don't introduce an offendatron approach to posts in this forum. Most grown ups can take criticism and either ignore or respond to it perfectly well on their own.

 

[Bazzer]

Mark,

I am interested in your proposition, and somewhat disheartened by the current response by some others, including mods and other 'senior' forum members.

I started beekeeping a long time after varroa made its entrance into the UK. Nonetheless, I speak to many older beekeepers who - back then - experienced totally devastating losses as a result of the mite. Obviously, varroa is still a very large issue, not least as high loads will inevitably serve as a vector for viruses etc...

That said, I would wager that, nowadays, most of us could move to a nigh-on 'treatment free' regime, and get our bees through the winter, and probably through another couple of years, before the related disease load took an ultimate toll. I have (and have had) colonies not only surviving, but thriving, in spite of very heavy mite loads...... though I appreciate it's not ideal, and will ultimately (whenever) lead to the bees' demise.

So I treat; as most of us do (and should).

However, given the point that varroa is here to stay, the more profound issue here is that we need to accept that the two organisms need to co-evolve; indeed, I think most would concede that, over the previous 20, 30, 40 years there has already been co-evolution to the point that honeybees in the UK can *generally* tolerate varroa, to a degree. In fact, let's face it.. over those timelines, it's not evolution, it's adaptation.

VSH bees are clearly better adapted, so why wouldn't a beekeeper seek to introduce those VSH genes to improve their stock ? Why should we (as you suggest) NOT be promoting this ?

So, to the thrust of your question … Is there a tangible benefit to keeping VSH bees ? What does it achieve ?

To mbc's point that, if you go down this (VSH) route, you need to constantly keep on top of the genes to make sure the traits are not being diluted over time ... well, I guess that's about regression, and is probably a fair point.

Nonetheless, take humans out of the equation; whichever way you spin the coin, co-evolution/VSH traits are the ONLY way that bees will cope with the endemic mite going forward. That is an almost inarguable point. You can fight it with all your toxic Amitraz etc... but the bees will need to have evolved a coping mechanism long after we have gone.

For me, it (the underlying philosophy) forms one of the key discussions about how we manage our bees over the next few decades.

So, it's therefore more than a little disappointing to see how mods (and other similar senior members, recent mods) respond to you as OP.

Emyr - your first comment seems to basically say, "you're welcome to your opinion, but please stick it up your arse"

Dani - of all things, you sit tight and then take umbrage at spelling (“pupi”/”pupae”), when I thought this place was a ‘broader church’ than that, and lots of spelling and grammatical errors are (rightly, nowadays) permitted to flow ... I don't see you asking who (other Mark) Curly Green is fingering, as his name suggests ??

Disappointing and passive aggressive.

I personally think Mark's musings on VSH Queens/colonies warrant proper discussion.

Or have I missed something on VSH Queens ?? Are they actually the spawn of satan ?

There are some of us who are already working towards being able to supply varroa resistant bees that can survive in fairly challenging conditions such as the West of Scotland. I expect to be selling over-wintered nucs in 2023. The original resistant stock I started with were fairly poor on many of the characteristics prized by beeks but were calm and easy to handle. I am fairy isolated and so have been able to gain reasonable control over the drone population while running a handful of treatment-free apaiaries. The stock characteristics have been significantly improved with survivorship remaining at over 90%.
I do agree with many on here who point out that crossing queens from stock such as mine with a local random propulation will likely lead to quite rapid loss of the resistant traits - but the same can be said for Buckfast etc. As you say long-term this is the only route forward and local groups will need to build up critical mass.

 

[Bazzer]

I am currently of the opinion that we should all seek to use VSH Queens when we elect to purchase a queen.
This I believe will have a minute but cumulative effect on the honey bee population to evolve in a way that helps them live with varroa .

I also think beeks that breed their own queens should consider purchasing the odd vhs queen to compare .

I’m interested in other beeks real life experience of Vsh queens .compared with non Vsh queens in the same year.

what are your mite loads like
What was honey production like

Hi Mark - I think this correct although I declare an interest as someone who will be looking to supply queens from Varroa resistant colonies in the future. I think multiple mechanisms are at play in naturally resistant stock and survival coupled with consistently low mite levels provide the best selection criteria.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The original resistant stock I started with were fairly poor on many of the characteristics prized by beeks

So what exactly are these many failings?

 

[madasafish]

My answer to the OP's many questions are put simply because I am a KISSer.

I have 7 full hives plus between 4 to 10 nucs and min nucs. Marginal for Q rearing. Impossible to BREED anything.
I try to raise my own queens despite the local weather being variable.
The local bees near me are horrible.
So every three to four years my stock deteriorates and I buy in Queens.
I don't have major varroa issues and treat as a matter of course. (Twice)
I don't like doing too many interventions (age, box weight and eyesight) so testing for VSH is a nogo.

I find local non treaters often VERY reticent on honey yields so assume they are poor.

 

[Bazzer]

So what exactly are these many failings?

They very rarely produced a significant surplus of honey and because they were reluctant to draw comb tended to be difficult to build up sufficiently to take splits off within our short season - probably in part because I use foundationless frames. My breeding programme has largely eliminated these issues although I do occasionally get regression back towards these characteristics. I would say the only characteristic that they do not show now that seems to be over-prized by beeks is the production of massive colonies. They make up for this by being very frugal with the stores they collect so can produce decent surpluses and because they overwinter with relatively small brood-nests I don't need to feed. Another thing many beeks don't seem to like - they are black and probably largely AMM - I intend to test genetics next year to check

 

[Erichalfbee]

Another thing many beeks don't seem to like - they are black and probably largely AMM - I intend to test genetics next year to check

I think you're wrong there. There is a massive hankering to keep black bees. The issue can be whether they ARE Amm?
Does it matter? Bees are bees and if they suit that particular beekeeper then they are good bees.
This from a hobbyist viewpoint

 

[Bazzer]

I think you're wrong there. There is a massive hankering to keep black bees. The issue can be whether they ARE Amm?
Does it matter? Bees are bees and if they suit that particular beekeeper then they are good bees.
This from a hobbyist viewpoint

I hope you are right - we will see next year, possibly this year for queens if we get a decent spring.

 

[Finman]

I think you're wrong there. There is a massive hankering to keep black bees. The issue can be whether they ARE Amm?
Does it matter? Bees are bees and if they suit that particular beekeeper then they are good bees.
This from a hobbyist viewpoint

Over 90% out of British beekeekeepers have under 4 hives. Do you think that these guys are eager to change their queens to expencive VSH queens?

I can not see any force, which can change this local bee situation.

Black mongrells will control mating sky for ever in the UK. From last Ice Age to next Ice Age.... even if the Black Bee was the last race to came from Africa to Europe. (It did not come from Cornwall's tundra.)

 

[Bazzer]

Over 90% out of British beekeekeepers have under 4 hives. Do you think that these guys are eager to change their queens to expencive VSH queens?

I can not see any force, which can change this local bee situation.

Black mongrells will control mating sky for ever in the UK. From last Ice Age to next Ice Age.... even if the Black Bee was the last race to came from Africa to Europe. (It did not come from Cornwall's tundra.)

You are correct - my black bees appear to be in control - they produce a lot of drones that fly earlier and later in the year and at temperatures just above 16C. The thing is the colonies are varroa resistant so I don't mind!
It remains to be seen whether I can sell queens but I do supply local beekeepers with nucs so their influence is spreading. Once COP26 have left I will be aiming to take over the skies in Glasgow

 

[Erichalfbee]

Over 90% out of British beekeekeepers have under 4 hives. Do you think that these guys are eager to change their queens to expencive VSH queens?

No I don’t and I didn’t say that. Do you think that 4 hive beekeepers are keen to actively improve their stock? Who knows? Most I know can’t be bothered. It’s hard work.