Do bees do better on 14 x 12 ?

[madasafish]

I run Langstroth jumbos as the box size gives a lot more space fr prolific bees. And you don't need to lift brood boxes during inspections. And they are - in my view - easier to handle than 14x12 which are very deep so turning frames is a PIA with a narrow topbar.
Swam control is in my view easier and less frames to make up.
In my view 14x12 is an abomination.

 

[Ian123]

Can I ask if a colony can get to 2 or 3 brood boxes at peak season, how are they set up by winter and how have you managed that?

Hi most of mine will be year old f1 buckfasts, there very good for lack of a swarming impulse and for me if I stay in front with space swarming controls are minimal as a general rule. I find peak season for me is mid June to mid July I often find the bottom boxes rammed with pollen during this time. By adding a third with supers above she’s got space, often only half used for brood they’ll rapidly pack the rest with honey/nectar. It works for me and my bees I’m not in anyway saying people should do it.
Come winter prep I simply push brood into the bottom boxes and remove excess honey load frames, so most end up double brood. It’s that flexibility you don’t get with 14x12.

 

[Nick Lang]

Very interesting discussion...thanks so much for everyone's input....It definitely has definitely shed light on the difference between each set up....which is primarily what I was looking for!!!
Without experiencing each set up....as a beginner it's very difficult to get a flavour of how the different set ups work!!
Ta.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Very interesting discussion...thanks so much for everyone's input....It definitely has definitely shed light on the difference between each set up....which is primarily what I was looking for!!!
Without experiencing each set up....as a beginner it's very difficult to get a flavour of how the different set ups work!!
Ta.

This is why I think all associations should have a few different formats

 

[drex]

Totally agree. Try before you buy. I was lucky, my teacher had a few different set ups

 

[blackcloud]

Definitely BEFORE buying -or it will be shookswarm inquiries.....

 

[whizzwheels]

I've always struggled with 14 x 12 hives, the bees on brood and a half always build up quicker and produce more honey

 

[WoodenBeam]

Very interesting discussion...thanks so much for everyone's input....It definitely has definitely shed light on the difference between each set up....which is primarily what I was looking for!!!
Without experiencing each set up....as a beginner it's very difficult to get a flavour of how the different set ups work!!
Ta.

Try and get to a local association or meet some other beeks to see their set ups before committing to one size/system, could save a few pounds in the long run as I’m sure you’ll expand your 1 colony into two or three at least.
Put the feelers out on here to see if you can meet a few fellow beeks, has to be a few around the Pontypool area.

 

[The Poot]

I started out on 14x12 but changed to National, and have found double brood a better format. (Pete Little was instrumental in that decision after referring to 14 x 12 as “an abortion” and recommending the benefits of double brood)!!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do consider poly Langstroth
It’s what I would have if starting again

 

[pargyle]

I like 14 x 12. It's a big enough brood box for most of the year but I run without queen excluders and in the spring build up some queens will lay up a bit in the first super. Not a problem as it gives them extra space and they clean the cells and backfill with honey as the season draws on.

I like the fact that inspections are just one box, I'm not having to lift heavy brood boxes around during inspections or worrying that it's time to stick on second brood box or run brood and a half (JBM and I may disagree on 14 x 12 but I totally agree that brood and half is pointless - might as well just go 14 x 12 !).

I have less kit to store with a single brood box and as I'm on poly they overwinter with a brood box full of stores well - usually end up taking stores of frames our in spring rather than faffing about with fondant.

They are compatible with standard national kit so lots of options available. I don't find the larger frames awkward to handle but vertically challenged beekeepers may find they are less convenient to lift and turn than standard nationals.

When I started Langstroth polys were not that readily available... too late now to change to Langstroths and even then ... there are so many beekeepers on national formats in the UK that it has limitations but... it's a pity as they are good sized hives.

As always in beekeeping it's a matter of personal preference and your decision .. it matters little to the bees what size box .. it's a matter of beekeeper convenience and what suits you. It doesn't matter what box you start with .. when you only have one or two hives it's not a problem - get to 5 or more and discovering you really DON'T like the format you have in place can be costly and difficult to change. Best to get some idea of a season or two and try a few different hive fornats before you commit to buyng 20 of the wrong size box (for you and your beekeeping) in the sales !

There's always a way you can get to try before you buy ... any local beekeeper will be pleased to show you how they run their bees and their boxes... and hopefully let you get the feel of inspections because that's where you will notice most what you can cope with.

 

[Delgirl]

Do consider poly Langstroth
It’s what I would have if starting again

I started with Langstroth (I was advised to go National on my beginner course). Cant remember why but I think I had read bees liked the bigger frames and boxes and took a punt. No regrets and whether just luck this year fantastic build up of bees, lots of honey and no swarms. Only drawback I have as I get older is MD supers can get very heavy so I rope in a strong friend to help where required. Two new Buckfast nucs have settled well into their new Langstroth long hive alongside my 3 poly hives so a new, less back straining, venture ahead there. Don’t be afraid to experiment a little is my view but use the forum and your BKA to keep you on the right track.

 

[robmort]

The rest of the world uses Langstroth but Britain, being better and with different bees than everyone else, has to use National.

 

[Murox]

The rest of the world uses Langstroth but Britain, being better and with different bees than everyone else, has to use National.

It seems that way doesn't it, but most countries have their own “unique” variant or multiple variants of a movable frame hive, though Langstroth is the most common hive.

 

[Nick Lang]

Try and get to a local association or meet some other beeks to see their set ups before committing to one size/system, could save a few pounds in the long run as I’m sure you’ll expand your 1 colony into two or three at least.
Put the feelers out on here to see if you can meet a few fellow beeks, has to be a few around the Pontypool area.

I have two colonies at the moment .....and another three hives ready for any splits/swarms next year......my original hive went bonkers this year.....from all the info around here I think I'm gonna try a double brood next year dummied down to 8 over 8....that way I can use the gear I already have.

 

[ericbeaumont]

my original hive went bonkers this year.....from all the info around here I think I'm gonna try a double brood next year

Good decision, Nick, because it's a simple upgrade that will give you flexibility.

When you say bonkers, I guess you mean prolific. This is routine for modern queens - Carniolan and Buckfast make big colonies of good-tempered bees and are sold to many beginners.

My take on this hive conundrum (having run 14x12 and National deeps) is that hive flexibility (and not size) is crucial to responsive seasonal management. Compare a hive to an accordion: both should be capable of rapid vertical or horizontal expansion and contraction.

In this respect a set of smaller boxes answers well; at the other end of the scale, a vast Dadant or Langstroth Jumbo would give enough space, and could be dummied to give internal flexibility.

What I would avoid is brood+half and 14x12: the first because it gives twice the work of a single box but only half the space advantage of double brood, and the second because the 41% extra brood space a 14x12 gives over a National deep is not aways enough (and then where do you go?).

If you want a really simple life, imagine using one size of box throughout: I work for a honey company that uses only brood boxes and no QX. Swarm reduction is significant. As the season progresses the top boxes are back-filled with honey and the colonies over-winter on two.

My system is similar in that I aim to have colonies on triple National deeps by May, but with QXs and supers on top; Ian runs his similarly and confirmed what I find: by late summer the bottom box holds a lot of pollen, the nest is (mainly) in the second, and honey rammed in the top BB and supers.

Granted, full National deeps are not light, but lift them properly and it's no big deal.

 

[Nick Lang]

Yes.....bonkers=prolific lol.

It seems to be the consensus that flexibility is the key....as you say.!!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I work for a honey company that uses only brood boxes and no QX.

I have tried double boxes and I just couldn't cope with the brood destruction every time I split the boxes and with checking double the frames. I checked my bee space, always right and always the bees built in between

 

[Redcap]

Compare a hive to an accordion: both should be capable of rapid vertical or horizontal expansion and contraction.

As an accordion playing beekeeper (both of which I aspire to be better at) I love this line !

 

[Murox]

I have tried double boxes and I just couldn't cope with the brood destruction every time I split the boxes and with checking double the frames. I checked my bee space, always right and always the bees built in between

I recall reading about winter clusters working their way up the comb and that there is an optimum depth for the brood nest/cluster and standard national frames are not deep enough, the twelve inch depth (of 14x12 format) is more or less right. I think that bees prefer not to have any gaps, bees space or otherwise, in the vertical plain of the nest area so they do bridge those gaps if they can, and thats certainly my limited experience too with double broods.

As a hobby keeper one homemade hive I built basically uses what amounts to 12 dadant sized brood frames but stood on their end, making a narrower deeper brood area, which has addressed for me anyway, the issue of not having a continuous brood nest and giving ample depth to the brood nest and certainly has reduced the chances of congestion at times of build up/brood rearing.