Do bees do better on 14 x 12 ?

[madasafish]

Yes.....bonkers=prolific lol.

It seems to be the consensus that flexibility is the key....as you say.!!!

I run a few nationals as well as Langstroth jumbos.and a National standard brood frame fits into a Langstroth jumbo frame with a few minor adjustments.
I also dummy down jumbo brood boxes to National size.
I use only Lang supers which fit onto nationals with a simple thin ply adaptor board.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I recall reading about winter clusters working their way up the comb and that there is an optimum depth for the brood nest/cluster and standard national frames are not deep enough,

Hmm - someone better tell my bees that

 

[deemann1]

Good decision, Nick, because it's a simple upgrade that will give you flexibility.

When you say bonkers, I guess you mean prolific. This is routine for modern queens - Carniolan and Buckfast make big colonies of good-tempered bees and are sold to many beginners.

My take on this hive conundrum (having run 14x12 and National deeps) is that hive flexibility (and not size) is crucial to responsive seasonal management. Compare a hive to an accordion: both should be capable of rapid vertical or horizontal expansion and contraction.

In this respect a set of smaller boxes answers well; at the other end of the scale, a vast Dadant or Langstroth Jumbo would give enough space, and could be dummied to give internal flexibility.

What I would avoid is brood+half and 14x12: the first because it gives twice the work of a single box but only half the space advantage of double brood, and the second because the 41% extra brood space a 14x12 gives over a National deep is not aways enough (and then where do you go?).

If you want a really simple life, imagine using one size of box throughout: I work for a honey company that uses only brood boxes and no QX. Swarm reduction is significant. As the season progresses the top boxes are back-filled with honey and the colonies over-winter on two.

My system is similar in that I aim to have colonies on triple National deeps by May, but with QXs and supers on top; Ian runs his similarly and confirmed what I find: by late summer the bottom box holds a lot of pollen, the nest is (mainly) in the second, and honey rammed in the top BB and supers.

Granted, full National deeps are not light, but lift them properly and it's no big deal.

Interesting
Do you just let them build up on spring flow and add supers for summer flow if not on early crops such as osr ..whats your method of swarm control while dealing with 3 brood boxes ?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Interesting
Do you just let them build up on spring flow and add supers for summer flow if not on early crops such as osr ..whats your method of swarm control while dealing with 3 brood boxes ?

Plenty of brood space early is the key, but brood congestion from spring nectar must be avoided so supers must go on at the same time.

From the bottom box a few frames of open brood are raised into the centre of the new box, which draws bees up and deters them from using the new upper brood as a super (they will, if a spring flow is strong).

Bottom box is re-filled with drawn comb (if I have it), alternated with full combs. Super is added, probably two, depending on area and flow and forecast (assesstimate).

Not long after and before peak laying, the third brood box is put between the first two; open brood combs are added as before, acting as a bridge. Maybe another super is given. Unfinished foundation is added alternately into the middle of the nests, expanding the colony laterally as well as vertically.

Such rapid addition of space gives bees work but though it reduces swarming, the inevitable cannot be eliminated. I check two or three centre combs in the top box, take it off, then do the same in the middle box. Usually ignore the bottom box unless polished or loaded cups have been found above.

If on your next visit you find untouched brood foundation, expect swarming. If time is short, a quick look lift & look under the top two broods may reveal loaded cups or QCs; I wouldn't rely on that but may get away with it.

If QCs are found I do a vertical split, often three or four in the same stack if the colony is good. The bottom box is standard AS - queen, foundation, flyers. The stronger splits get the supers, and the upper a QX a month later when the queen starts laying (by then I'll have found a few QXs at the back of a shed).

Once the queens are mated and laying I take out a 3 or 4-frame nuc and unite the stack to the bottom entrance. If nucs are needed strong they go off-site, but as the main flow is not far off, nucs in the same apiary allows the foragers to return to work for the main colony. Bees soon work out the reduction to one entrance. The small nucs have plenty of time to build before wasps & winter appear.

At this point the colony will have three broods and two or three supers; one or two more supers go on, the main flow opens and the slog is over.

When the top brood is full of honey the QX can be taken out, because queens are unlikely to cross that expanse of honey and the absence of a QX allows house bees to unload more rapidly. Alternatively, the QX can be put on top of the second brood, where it stays in case a block of fondant is needed at the end of the year.

Bees work far faster than humans and for many years I lagged behind in giving space early enough and in sufficient quantity, so ran around struggling with sweaty swarming.

The trick is to recognise the speed at which colonies build and to be flexible and ready to take advantage of it; this surprises newer beekeepers, perhaps influenced (as I was) by the rigid catalogue set-up of one brood and two supers.

 

[deemann1]

Plenty of brood space early is the key, but brood congestion from spring nectar must be avoided so supers must go on at the same time.

From the bottom box a few frames of open brood are raised into the centre of the new box, which draws bees up and deters them from using the new upper brood as a super (they will, if a spring flow is strong).

Bottom box is re-filled with drawn comb (if I have it), alternated with full combs. Super is added, probably two, depending on area and flow and forecast (assesstimate).

Not long after and before peak laying, the third brood box is put between the first two; open brood combs are added as before, acting as a bridge. Maybe another super is given. Unfinished foundation is added alternately into the middle of the nests, expanding the colony laterally as well as vertically.

Such rapid addition of space gives bees work but though it reduces swarming, the inevitable cannot be eliminated. I check two or three centre combs in the top box, take it off, then do the same in the middle box. Usually ignore the bottom box unless polished or loaded cups have been found above.

If on your next visit you find untouched brood foundation, expect swarming. If time is short, a quick look lift & look under the top two broods may reveal loaded cups or QCs; I wouldn't rely on that but may get away with it.

If QCs are found I do a vertical split, often three or four in the same stack if the colony is good. The bottom box is standard AS - queen, foundation, flyers. The stronger splits get the supers, and the upper a QX a month later when the queen starts laying (by then I'll have found a few QXs at the back of a shed).

Once the queens are mated and laying I take out a 3 or 4-frame nuc and unite the stack to the bottom entrance. If nucs are needed strong they go off-site, but as the main flow is not far off, nucs in the same apiary allows the foragers to return to work for the main colony. Bees soon work out the reduction to one entrance. The small nucs have plenty of time to build before wasps & winter appear.

At this point the colony will have three broods and two or three supers; one or two more supers go on, the main flow opens and the slog is over.

When the top brood is full of honey the QX can be taken out, because queens are unlikely to cross that expanse of honey and the absence of a QX allows house bees to unload more rapidly. Alternatively, the QX can be put on top of the second brood, where it stays in case a block of fondant is needed at the end of the year.

Bees work far faster than humans and for many years I lagged behind in giving space early enough and in sufficient quantity, so ran around struggling with sweaty swarming.

The trick is to recognise the speed at which colonies build and to be flexible and ready to take advantage of it; this surprises newer beekeepers, perhaps influenced (as I was) by the rigid catalogue set-up of one brood and two supers.

Very informative
Thank you
I will need a change in system
Currently running 50 colonies want to expand to 100 next year .. i have been using demaree but is time consuming. Tried alot of colonies on double brood this season which helped swarming

 

[ericbeaumont]

demaree but is time consuming

Never tried it for that reason.

Simple systems and the kit to carry it out relieve stress & work. I'm not there yet by any means, but this year discovered a gem of a teenager who can make perfect frames. He sits at market and knocks them out; customers love to se a young person developing skills.

By next spring I will be ready!