DLQ not found - what are my options?

[Salamagundy]

Background: I'm a newbee in my second season, struggling to keep up with the bees.... I'm working on finding queens (only one original marked queen remains, the others are all unmarked) but I've not had much success so far when it matters. I'd welcome any comments on the following:

AS on 28th June, 1 queen cell left in the hive; yesterday I found single eggs in cells on both sides of the queen excluder (!), producing only drone brood, which is quite closely packed. Can't find the queen. Two supers full of honey (apart from where the drone brood has been laid) which the bees are capping. Also lots of honey in the outer frames of the brood box and lots of pollen going in.

Based on my very limited experience I'm assuming I have small, unmated dlq able to go through the qe, and that my options are limited if I can't find her, and possibly because it's already August. I'm hesitating before taking the brutal step of evicting them all and sharing the stores out among the other colonies.

If my analysis is correct (and I realise it may not be...) what should I do?

Thanks in advance for any advice offered.

 

[oliver90owner]

Find her and replace with a laying queen, if, indeed it is a DLQ.

found single eggs

Means nothing. Need to know the placement in the cells and the brood pattern. Need a novel way to find that queen, if there is one (it is very likely).

Moving the hive away and then dumping the colony and allowing to fly back, hoping the queen will be lost might be one way.

Running all the bees back into the colony and watching as they go is another, but finding her on a frame must be the easiest in most circumstances. place each searched frame in another box and then search the nooks and crannies as virgins are good at hiding.

Splitting the colony is another - just wait a couple of days and check for new eggs, then do the same trick again (not on the Q- part!!).

There are others, so lots of opportunity depending on your circumstances.

Could even do something novel like enlististing the help of someone who can find the queen!

 

[Salamagundy]

Find her and replace with a laying queen, if, indeed it is a DLQ.

found single eggs

Means nothing. Need to know the placement in the cells and the brood pattern. Need a novel way to find that queen, if there is one (it is very likely).

Moving the hive away and then dumping the colony and allowing to fly back, hoping the queen will be lost might be one way.

Running all the bees back into the colony and watching as they go is another, but finding her on a frame must be the easiest in most circumstances. place each searched frame in another box and then search the nooks and crannies as virgins are good at hiding.

Splitting the colony is another - just wait a couple of days and check for new eggs, then do the same trick again (not on the Q- part!!).

There are others, so lots of opportunity depending on your circumstances.

Could even do something novel like enlististing the help of someone who can find the queen!

Thanks very much for the advice, O90O. I should have mentioned that the eggs were all at the bottom of the cells. By 'quite closely packed' I meant that the brood is not spread out all over the frames - it's tightly grouped on a couple of frames in the middle of the box.

If the rain stops I'll go up and try again.

 

[susbees]

Yep, sounds like a small unmated DLQ. I can spot queens easily BUT not these.

Easiest solution is to tip them out to strengthen other colonies and remove the box.

I had one fly back and recommence laying so wouldn't waste time on it.

And two other experienced beekeepers played "spot the queen" on that one. And failed.

 

[Salamagundy]

Yep, sounds like a small unmated DLQ. I can spot queens easily BUT not these.

Easiest solution is to tip them out to strengthen other colonies and remove the box.

I had one fly back and recommence laying so wouldn't waste time on it.

And two other experienced beekeepers played "spot the queen" on that one. And failed.

Thanks, Susbees. The idea of strengthening the other colonies takes the edge off tipping them out.

With the box removed what are the chances she will get into one of the other hives and cause problems, if she makes it back?

 

[thepliedes]

What about the possibility of grafting a queen cell into your queenless/drone laying colony? Do you have any spare capped queen cells in your other colonies you could attach to a frame so they can 'raise it as their own'. I would try this. What do others think?

 

[Salamagundy]

What about the possibility of grafting a queen cell into your queenless/drone laying colony? Do you have any spare capped queen cells in your other colonies you could attach to a frame so they can 'raise it as their own'. I would try this. What do others think?

Thanks Thepliedes. As it happens I do currently have some queen cells in another hive (another story - still trying to work out what to do with that one...) but wonder if a grafted queen in her cell would be safe from the drone laying queen which I can't find to remove.

 

[meidel]

I had a similar situation and was advised to do a Taranov swarm - ie get a sloping board and place it a few cms (about 10-15) away from the entrance of the hive, remove brood box and place an empty box in its place. Shake out all the bees onto the board and as the foragers fly back in, the DLQ doesn't and there should be a small build up of bees under the sloping board along with her - don't waste time looking for her there - wrap up the board with the ball of bees under it and shake into a hedge as far away from the apiary as you can get - I shook them out about 20metres away.edit - not entirely sure about 20m it might have been more like 50 metres

I then ran a virgin queen into the hive the same day and miraculously all was well in a few weeks!! I culled as much of the drone brood as I could and now have pretty hideous looking brood frames which the bees are tidying up as best as they can.
edit - in your case, bearing in mind the lateness in the season, I wouldn't be chancing them with a virgin but would say they'd be safe enough to combine with another Q+ colony.

 

[Salamagundy]

I had a similar situation and was advised to do a Taranov swarm - ie get a sloping board and place it a few cms (about 10-15) away from the entrance of the hive, remove brood box and place an empty box in its place. Shake out all the bees onto the board and as the foragers fly back in, the DLQ doesn't and there should be a small build up of bees under the sloping board along with her - don't waste time looking for her there - wrap up the board with the ball of bees under it and shake into a hedge as far away from the apiary as you can get - I shook them out about 20metres away.edit - not entirely sure about 20m it might have been more like 50 metres

I then ran a virgin queen into the hive the same day and miraculously all was well in a few weeks!! I culled as much of the drone brood as I could and now have pretty hideous looking brood frames which the bees are tidying up as best as they can.
edit - in your case, bearing in mind the lateness in the season, I wouldn't be chancing them with a virgin but would say they'd be safe enough to combine with another Q+ colony.

Thanks Meidel - so much still to learn! I'll read up a bit more about the Taranov swarm, make a decision tonight and hope for a break in the rain tomorrow.

 

[meidel]

Thanks Meidel - so much still to learn! I'll read up a bit more about the Taranov swarm, make a decision tonight and hope for a break in the rain tomorrow.

there's a good write up in the dave cushman site i read up on before doing it

 

[For want of a better word]

Something I will have to try... putting a qe under the brood after shaking them out " a la Taranov"

any point in doing this? have yet to capture a DLQ, maybe because same size as a worker?

comments please

 

[Salamagundy]

Something I will have to try... putting a qe under the brood after shaking them out " a la Taranov"

any point in doing this? have yet to capture a DLQ, maybe because same size as a worker?

comments please

Sorry Icanhopit - I wrote an honest reply before I saw how many posts you had made and I initially took your post at face value.

As a beginner I've had great advice from good people on this forum, who don't mind that I am learning, but it really can be a minefield for the callow and unsuspecting....

 

[Salamagundy]

there's a good write up in the dave cushman site i read up on before doing it

Thanks Meidel - I'll check it out.

 

[TOBY-3652]

i had the same problem so what i did was move the brood box from the stand and replace it with a fresh box with 7 frames of drawn comb . placed a queen excluder on top and then another brood box with no frames on top of the queen excluder then i took all the frames out of the original brood box with bees on and shook then in the empty box. then i smoked them down through excluder , and got the queen like that/ left for a couple of days then i united with a queen right box

 

[oliver90owner]

and got the queen like that

Inapproproate? Read the OP? Here is the relevant bit: yesterday I found single eggs in cells on both sides of the queen excluder

 

[richardbees]

I've got a nuc started with Q cell in June. She's now already laid three sides of comb, but tiny and very hard to find, found her on Friday and tried to mark her using 'crown of thorns' = she wriggled herself out through the mesh while I was unscrewing the cap on the paint.

Just thought i'd share as example that Q excluders don't always work!

I'm going to wait a few months and hope she'll fatten-up after a few thousand more children.....

 

[Salamagundy]

i had the same problem so what i did was move the brood box from the stand and replace it with a fresh box with 7 frames of drawn comb . placed a queen excluder on top and then another brood box with no frames on top of the queen excluder then i took all the frames out of the original brood box with bees on and shook then in the empty box. then i smoked them down through excluder , and got the queen like that/ left for a couple of days then i united with a queen right box

Thanks Toby. I did in fact try this but the other way round - all bees into an empty brood box, qe on top then brood in original box, assuming all the bees apart from the queen and drones would go up to the brood, so that even I would be able to find her. As I was putting the supers back on I found drone brood in the first super, meaning that in my case the drone laying queen is small enough to get through a queen excluder.

ps just read O90O's post - maybe Icanhopit's post confused matters a bit.

 

[MuswellMetro]

This year I 'v done three shake out on hives with DLQ after tapeing a QE over the entrance

Two worked well . On one I found the DLQ on the QE and the other two queens on the sheet....!!!! ( one was marked with a colour i have never used so it was from a friends hive close by!!!)

I then combined them with Q+ nucs

the third was a nightmare and swamped a nearby Nuc

 

[Salamagundy]

I've got a nuc started with Q cell in June. She's now already laid three sides of comb, but tiny and very hard to find, found her on Friday and tried to mark her using 'crown of thorns' = she wriggled herself out through the mesh while I was unscrewing the cap on the paint.

Just thought i'd share as example that Q excluders don't always work!

I'm going to wait a few months and hope she'll fatten-up after a few thousand more children.....

Thanks Richardbees - still to try marking my first queen but I now realise how important it is to be able to find her!

 

[Salamagundy]

This year I 'v done three shake out on hives with DLQ after tapeing a QE over the entrance

Two worked well . On one I found the DLQ on the QE and the other two queens on the sheet....!!!! ( one was marked with a colour i have never used so it was from a friends hive close by!!!)

I then combined them with Q+ nucs

the third was a nightmare and swamped a nearby Nuc

Thanks MM. At the risk of asking a stupid question any idea what percentage of unmated queens would be small enough to get through a queen excluder? I.e. is mine a common problem?