Disappearing eggs from test frame.

[Armpitjam]

Hi, one of my hives is being a nightmare, it went queenless back in June so I put in a test frame to be sure and they made emergency queen cells as expected, I knocked them down, checking every few days before the queen came.

I ordered a queen from exmoor bees, I put the intro cage on top frames with new queen to gage how they behave, they were interested but not glued to the cage when pushing with finger. So after 24hrs I checked queen, same as the day before not aggressive so opened the tab for bees to release queen. 7 days later I checked if queen has been released, she had been released. At day 10 of introduction I quickly looked for eggs, no eggs.

So I left the hive intill day 15 of introduction, still no eggs or brood. I decided to put a test frame in to see what’s going on, 3 days later no queencells or eggs brood of any sort on the test frame. I remember choosing the frame to use, it literally was a whole frame of eggs and day or 2 old lava. It seems they have rejected the eggs and lava because the test frame is now empty.

Iv tried google search for info but it seems eggs and lava being rejected from test frame is pretty unique.

Has anyone had this before?

 

[Boston Bees]

Hi, one of my hives is being a nightmare, it went queenless back in June so I put in a test frame to be sure and they made emergency queen cells as expected, I knocked them down, checking every few days before the queen came.

I ordered a queen from exmoor bees, I put the intro cage on top frames with new queen to gage how they behave, they were interested but not glued to the cage when pushing with finger. So after 24hrs I checked queen, same as the day before not aggressive so opened the tab for bees to release queen. 7 days later I checked if queen has been released, she had been released. At day 10 of introduction I quickly looked for eggs, no eggs.

So I left the hive intill day 15 of introduction, still no eggs or brood. I decided to put a test frame in to see what’s going on, 3 days later no queencells or eggs brood of any sort on the test frame. I remember choosing the frame to use, it literally was a whole frame of eggs and day or 2 old lava. It seems they have rejected the eggs and lava because the test frame is now empty.

Iv tried google search for info but it seems eggs and lava being rejected from test frame is pretty unique.

Has anyone had this before?

What is on the other frames? Does the hive have adequate/any stores?

 

[Armpitjam]

What is on the other frames? Does the hive have adequate/any stores?

They have plenty of pollen and stores, they have been bloodless for a few weeks so yea plenty lol.

 

[Boston Bees]

They have plenty of pollen and stores, they have been bloodless for a few weeks so yea plenty lol.

Hmm. Odd one. Are there plenty of bees?

 

[madasafish]

Virgin queen running around? My best guess

 

[Patrick1]

Hi, one of my hives is being a nightmare, it went queenless back in June so I put in a test frame to be sure and they made emergency queen cells as expected, I knocked them down, checking every few days before the queen came.

I ordered a queen from exmoor bees, I put the intro cage on top frames with new queen to gage how they behave, they were interested but not glued to the cage when pushing with finger. So after 24hrs I checked queen, same as the day before not aggressive so opened the tab for bees to release queen. 7 days later I checked if queen has been released, she had been released. At day 10 of introduction I quickly looked for eggs, no eggs.

So I left the hive intill day 15 of introduction, still no eggs or brood. I decided to put a test frame in to see what’s going on, 3 days later no queencells or eggs brood of any sort on the test frame. I remember choosing the frame to use, it literally was a whole frame of eggs and day or 2 old lava. It seems they have rejected the eggs and lava because the test frame is now empty.

Iv tried google search for info but it seems eggs and lava being rejected from test frame is pretty unique.

Has anyone had this before?

They wanted their own queen, I would have let them keep working on one of the emergency cells. When the new queen arrived I would have knocked over the cell then the next day introduced a queen.

They are expecting a cell then a queen, no cells then they are not expecting the queen.

I never see the point of sacrificing a whole frame of material into and unknown set of issues, you have lost a frame instead of just a small test piece. Just a thought

 

[Armpitjam]

Thanks guys. Yes there is still loads of bees, they have stopped running around like they do when queenless on the frames...they seem calm yesterday on frames so a bit confusing. They are buckfast so calm with or without a queen anyway. The other problem is I don’t won’t to go pulling all the frames out again just in case the new queen is in there and they decide to ball her.

I would unite them to another colony but I’m to confused as to what there doing.

Also this is my second year keeping bees, got started last June so this year has been a steep learning curve.

 

[enrico]

Thanks guys. Yes there is still loads of bees, they have stopped running around like they do when queenless on the frames...they seem calm yesterday on frames so a bit confusing. They are buckfast so calm with or without a queen anyway. The other problem is I don’t won’t to go pulling all the frames out again just in case the new queen is in there and they decide to ball her.

I would unite them to another colony but I’m to confused as to what there doing.

Also this is my second year keeping bees, got started last June so this year has been a steep learning curve.

Be patient ..... I reckon there is a queen there

 

[Armpitjam]

Be patient ..... I reckon there is a queen there

Thanks, I was thinking the same thing. I will look in quickly in 5 days time and update this thread.

 

[user 819]

One suspects the introduced Q has likely been killed if not laying by now and a home reared VQ is in residence, whether she has gone out and mated yet one will have to wait. Patience is key and could be 4-5 weeks with a VQ having emerged.
Again another post which gives no actual dates or time lines to know exactly when, what or why.

 

[Armpitjam]

One suspects the introduced Q has likely been killed if not laying by now and a home reared VQ is in residence, whether she has gone out and mated yet one will have to wait. Patience is key and could be 4-5 weeks with a VQ having emerged.
Again another post which gives no actual dates or time lines to know exactly when, what or why.

Hi, I noticed no eggs in this hive in 2 inspections over 10days back in late June in to July, so I put test frame in, checked 3 days later for queencells and knocked them down and ordered a new queen. While waiting for new queen I was checking for new queencells and knocking them down. Definitely no virgin at this point.

Queen came in post five days later, put new queen in hive, everything looked good, bees not aggressive. 7 days later queen had been released, then checked at day10 for eggs but was no eggs.

At day 15 of intro(which was 4days ago) I put in a test frame and checked 3 days later which was yesterday and found test frame empty, it’s like they have rejected the brood from the test frame.

Personally I don’t think there’s a virgin in the hive as I done everything I could to prevent that, unless a rogue virgin got in while requeening.

Is there a sticky on how post should be made, I don’t have dates and times sorry.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

It's fair to assume that the introduced queen was killed. If killed by the workers, then you have had a long time without brood or a queen in which case laying workers may be your next situation to deal with. Otherwise if there have been a few days of decent weather where you are, then a young queen should have mated and started laying.
If there's a queen in the hive, there should be an area (roughly spherical) in the middle of the brood nest with polished cells where you would expect to see brood. Laying workers tend to lay in more random patches on several combs once they get started. Removal of eggs from a test-frame is not a good sign and I would be inclined to think laying workers. Any they can be calm as if there is a 'proper' queen in there.

 

[madasafish]

Hi, I noticed no eggs in this hive in 2 inspections over 10days back in late June in to July, so I put test frame in, checked 3 days later for queencells and knocked them down and ordered a new queen. While waiting for new queen I was checking for new queencells and knocking them down. Definitely no virgin at this point.

Queen came in post five days later, put new queen in hive, everything looked good, bees not aggressive. 7 days later queen had been released, then checked at day10 for eggs but was no eggs.

At day 15 of intro(which was 4days ago) I put in a test frame and checked 3 days later which was yesterday and found test frame empty, it’s like they have rejected the brood from the test frame.

Personally I don’t think there’s a virgin in the hive as I done everything I could to prevent that, unless a rogue virgin got in while requeening.

Is there a sticky on how post should be made, I don’t have dates and times sorry.

You really need to keep a record for your own information of inspections and dates. Nothing complicated. If you are dealing with QCs then a series of dates helps you forecast into the future of when Q may emerge, be mated and start laying.

The "normal" timing is roughly as follows:
QC capped
+ 7-8 days Q emerges.
+21 days after emerging Q mated and laying.

People trying to help cannot if they don't know dates of QC capping (or a reasonable guess).

 

[Armpitjam]

Yea they have made space for a queen to lay by looks of it yesterday, middle of frames empty with arch of stores on tops of frames.

Madasafish thanks will start keeping better records as iv only been marking the day in calendar without details. I’m still learning, everything I’ve learnt is from this forum. Iv only 4 hives at the moment so never bothered to keep records but as iv realised days can go by fast and before you know it you have do a artificial swarm like Iv had to do this year.

I think this probably my fault because I’m new beekeeper, it’s my first balls up lol.

I guess all I can do is hope for no laying workers.

Thanks everyone for input, much appreciated.

 

[user 819]

Even with inly one hive one needs to keep an inspection record, make simple basic notes of the inspection as this helps with knowing when new Q's emerge and often the exact day she is due to. Without specific timings we can't give much advice.
One suspects a VQ is still the likely outcome within the colony, despite our best or worst efforts the bees can secrete a QC out of our view.

 

[user 819]

Hi, I noticed no eggs in this hive in 2 inspections over 10days back in late June in to July, so I put test frame in, checked 3 days later for queencells and knocked them down and ordered a new queen. While waiting for new queen I was checking for new queencells and knocking them down. Definitely no virgin at this point.

Queen came in post five days later, put new queen in hive, everything looked good, bees not aggressive. 7 days later queen had been released, then checked at day10 for eggs but was no eggs.

At day 15 of intro(which was 4days ago) I put in a test frame and checked 3 days later which was yesterday and found test frame empty, it’s like they have rejected the brood from the test frame.

Personally I don’t think there’s a virgin in the hive as I done everything I could to prevent that, unless a rogue virgin got in while requeening.

Is there a sticky on how post should be made, I don’t have dates and times sorry.

That doesn't help much at all as it is all very vague, though a VQ is still to be the likely scenario, thwarting them by knocking back QC's they can instead raise and rear a Q from older larvae in the space of 6 days.
The new mated Q isn't laying, this suggests she was killed on release or thereafter and a VQ is present.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

will start keeping better records as iv only been marking the day in calendar without details.

Something like this is more than enough to help you get your head around stuff

 

[smok]

Hi Armpitjam
do you are 100% sure you knocked down all queen cells???
your story sound like one queen cell survived,bees are very inventive hiding them.
then you introduced new queen,without serious interest by bees because maybe they had virgin queen somwhere hiding.
and keep those queens together for now until new virgin queen will be properly mate
and decide who stay who have go.
many times two queens work together,but not many new beekeepers notice what's going on

 

[Armpitjam]

Hi Armpitjam
do you are 100% sure you knocked down all queen cells???
your story sound like one queen cell survived,bees are very inventive hiding them.
then you introduced new queen,without serious interest by bees because maybe they had virgin queen somwhere hiding.
and keep those queens together for now until new virgin queen will be properly mate
and decide who stay who have go.
many times two queens work together,but not many new beekeepers notice what's going on

The only queen cells made were the ones on the test frame as the hive had no open brood at that point. I was going into the hive every 3 days to knock all cells down intill queen arrived in post. By that point no queen cells had been made as no open brood left. I may of missed a tiny cell because when knocking them down I can remember thinking these cells are small, looked like drone cells to my inexperienced eye. First time I seen emergency cells so could of missed one. I feel like an ***** now lol.

The only thing I can go on is I’m to inexperienced for this particular situation.

Thanks Jenkins will have a good look at that pdf.

 

[Armpitjam]

Had a look in the hive yesterday and seen the new white marked queen laying nicely, so this new queen had taken over 15 days to start laying.

Really was doubting myself after reading comments on here, I done everything I was supposed to do.