Did an artificial swarm...and then they went and swarmed anyway

[davidharradine]

I did an artificial swarm a week ago, as I'd been surprised to find a dozen queen cells, some capped, in my colony.

Today I had a quick look in the new hive (the one I'd put the old queen in) as there didn't seem to be much going on... and she wasn't there, so they must have swarmed anyway, after I'd split them.

So now I'm a bit sad.

There were a couple of emergency queen cells in the new hive, with larva. There are only about 3 frames of bees in there, but they do seem to be drawing out foundation and have already built up some honey and pollen stores.

Meanwhile all is well in the old hive, with a juicy capped queen cell and lots of busy bees.

So...what do you think I should do?
Get rid of the emergency queen cells in the new hive and reunite the colonies now?
Let both hives make new queens and reunite later?

Or (and this is the one I'd really like to do as I really wanted to have 2 colonies by the end of this year) let them both make new queens and hope that as it's still quite early in the year that there's plenty of time for both colonies to build up strongly by the autumn?

Any advice much appreciated.
Thanks
David

 

[greatbritishhoney]

David,
I'm no expert but I'd say if you found sealed queen cells then they had already swarmed before you did your AS and what you have had now is a cast swarm.
I'd leave both hives to see if they now develop suitable queens. But I wouldn't leave any more than 2 queen cells in each hive otherwise you risk more casts.

Andy

 

[drstitson]

leave them to it - one proper new colony, one with "scrub" queen.

not best management but similar end result.

 

[Otleybee]

Same thing happened to me but I managed to catch the swarm. I have two QC in what was to be the artificial swarm hive so I am leaving them to it. It might turn out to be a scrub queen but then I will just unite that colony with another. Nothing to lose in my book but I am a beginner!

 

[davidharradine]

Thanks for the ideas.

Andy, they definitely hadn't swarmed as the queen was still with them when I did the artificial swarm.

I've never heard of a "scrub" queen. Is that the term for a queen that comes out of an emergency queen cell?
Are they generally not as good?

David

 

[Otleybee]

I've never heard of a "scrub" queen. Is that the term for a queen that comes out of an emergency queen cell?
Are they generally not as good?

David

Yes and Yes

 

[Andy Coleman]

David - I'll leave it to others with more experience to give advice on your question but I was interested by your description. Did you have capped Q cells in the original hive, and were then able to find the old Q, despite the texbooks saying they will swarm once ther is a capped Q cell? I've had similar, I found numerous Q cups, some with eggs/ small larvae, and then found a capped Q cell, although it wasn't a very good one, which I supposed must have come from a cup I missed on an earlier inspection. Wasn't expecting to find the old Q but then saw her on bottom brood box!

Also is your "new" hive on the original site, i.e. a standard artificial swarm?

regards Andy

 

[davidharradine]

Andy, yep, exactly as you described. Found about 12 queen cells last week, 2 of them capped, panicked, assuming they would have swarmed, and then found the queen pottering around as usual. Immediately did artificial swarm (and yes, the new hive is on the original position).

"If you find capped queen cells then they will have already swarmed" - nope.

"An artificial swarm will prevent the colony from swarming" - nope to that too!

I sort of like that the bees just do what the bees do, whatever we say about them. But I'm still sad.

 

[Heather]

For a shook swarm some recommend a QE under the brood box for 48hrs. Maybe the same for an artificial for 48 hrs. They wont leave without a queen.

 

[rae]

If you find capped queen cells, they are waiting for an opportunity to swarm. We ASd our big colony first thing this morning having just got back from holiday. Several uncapped queen cells, one capped. Queen still present and correct, but the hive was boiling with bees. The old frames are now two nucs, the old queen is back in the old box with 10 frames of 14x12 foundation and one frame of her old brood (no queen cells) to keep her there.

While we were ASing that one...another hive swarmed right in front of us. I have no doubt if we'd done the AS about 2 hours later, if would have been too late. We finally got the swarm back in a box, complete with queen at 8 PM this evening. It got all of 50 yards, but settled in a bank and was a pig to get under control.

We started the day with 6 colonies. We now have 8 and 3 nucs!

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi David it’s a classic case of the bees don’t read the books.

What I think may have happened is when you transferred the queen over to the new hive with the frame she was on you perhaps had early queen cells on the frame and missed them they can be small at first, or the swarm instinct was very strong and perhaps helped with the early queen cells?

Next time perhaps check the hive 4-5 days after the as and remove any queen cells.

If I was you I would just let things develop as it is.

 

[New Bee 2]

I lost a swarm this weekend too!! I went into the hive and saw capped queen cells and figured if I knocked down all the queen cells & cups I could buy myself a few days to prep for an AS. Anyway .. needless to say, the bees weren't on board with my plan and swarmed the following day. PS - I saw the marked queen during the inspection so they definately hadn't swarmed at that time. Now the swarm is at the top of a conifer and doesn't see to be going anyway .. would break my neck trying to get up there so its all very frustrating.

 

[New Bee 2]

Queen excluder swarm prevention??

One more thing .. with ref to Heathers comment on the QE .. what if a QE was left under the brood box all the time? Would this prevent swarming?? Or maybe a grate at the front of the hive so the queen can't exit?

 

[Friar Tuck]

One more thing .. with ref to Heathers comment on the QE .. what if a QE was left under the brood box all the time? Would this prevent swarming?? Or maybe a grate at the front of the hive so the queen can't exit?

You would prob get pissed off bees and fighting queens !

 

[Erichalfbee]

what if a QE was left under the brood box all the time?

None of the drones would get out

 

[New Bee 2]

QE - not a good idea long term then!

Ooops .. yes - I'd forgotten all about the drones! Thank's for averting yet another potential bee-disaster

 

[MuswellMetro]

If I was you I would just let things develop as it is.

Agree with tom,

London has had unusual weather conditions this year , the QC are early and here in North london Drones are only just emerging

yes London has in the past got odd swarms on 1st April and a fair few by 15th but they are normally badly mated

it's first and second weeks in May that normally mayhem erupts, this year it was early 7th to 15th April and is likely to continue

I have not made any Nuc so far this year as thought it to early and i am unlikely to go for increase now, just recombines to fatten them up

 

[Heather]

I did say- just for 2 days to let them settle ...and here in the South- I have drones out and about and lots in some hives.
All looking good - so far no queen cells - - but sod's law- I have an incubator waiting to bring them on. Just in case any of the Assoc lose a queen- Hey Ho

 

[Mandeville]

We lost a swarm this morning We'd been on holiday for a couple of weeks and got back very late Sunday, I was planning to do an inspection today ...

This is probably a daft question, but I can't get hold of my mentor - is there any point in opening up now or should I leave it for a day or two?

Thanks
Mandy

 

[rae]

Not a daft question at all.

it is certainly worth opening up and either reducing the number of queen cells to one nice big one, or splitting the colony into two and putting a decent queen cell in each.

If you don't trim the number of cells, then the colony is likely to issue casts as each virgin emerges. I would certainly take the opportunity to split the colony if you have the kit, as this will give you options if one of the queens fails to mate.

We also went on holiday,but thankfully got back late saturday night and did the AS on Sunday morning - we lost one swarm as we were ASing another hive, but we got it back (eventually!)