Dealing with hell

[jeff33]

I have been trying to deal with the hive from hell for a while. It was a prime swarm from last year on dble brood and produced 3 supers in the spring. Temper was OK then but has got worse over the last 2 months or so. I can only describe the experience when opening it as the equivalent to shaking a bottle of pop and opening it straight away... Unfortunately the hive is full of angry bees, not bubbles!!

I did a vertical split 3 weeks ago to separate brood from flyers, separated the 2 bb with a snelgrove board, killed the queen 8 days after and introduced a mated queen with the brood when they couldn't raise another one. Unfortunately, they killed her. I then re-assembled the hive and added a frame of larvae from another hive for them to raise their own as I was going away.

I can either let them get on with it and don't open the hive for a good few weeks by which time they will have dwindled but I am not guaranteed a good queen. Split brood and nurse bees from flyers and try to introduce another mated queen after removing all QCs or split again and place the remaining brood and nurse bees under a good nuc separated by a snelgrove board for a good week or so before uniting after removing all QCs. If I go for the last 2 options I will have to close all the flyers when they are back at the original site and dispose of them.

Thoughts please?

 

[Anduril]

They can get tetchy with a flow, for me I would place a nuc with 1 frame of bias on the original site for the flyers after moving and splitting your double brood to another part of the apiary, for a few days you may get silent robbing, because they have the same smell for a few days. You now have 2 separate brood boxes and a nuc. One of the brood boxes can be split in 2, to make 2 nucs. You now have a choice of introducing a mated queen in each, or one mated queen in one and a frame of bias from a nice hive in the other, removing queen cells you don't need. Also possibly a frame of bias in the other brood box. From there you can either increase or recombine at a later date.

 

[jeff33]

Thanks Anduril. I have reduced it to 1 bb today as there was only 4 frames of brood left. All others have emerged since I killed the queen. I will probably introduce another queen once split is done.

 

[Millet]

Buy three/four mated Queens...kill all chances of angry Queen and make some Queenless nucs up to accomodate your new Queens.

 

[Haughton Honey]

You could try this next time...

Move the hot hive to a new location and replace it with an empty brood box containing a frame of eggs from a nice-natured colony (one worth breeding from), a frame of emerging brood, a frame of pollen/stores and the remainder filled out with drawn comb or foundation.

After 24 hours find and kill the hot hive Q in the original brood box, add a frame of eggs from a nice-natured colony and then feed. Seven days later remove all EQC's NOT on the introduced frame of eggs.

 

[Eyeman]

Not sure what method you used to introduce your new queen ? I would alway use a push in cage in this situation, need to recheck after releasing the queen from the cage as they can raise QC's from her brood so those will need knocking down.

 

[For want of a better word]

Move the hot hive to a new location and replace it with an empty brood box containing a frame of eggs from a nice-natured colony (one worth breeding from), a frame of emerging brood, a frame of pollen/stores and the remainder filled out with drawn comb or foundation.

After 24 hours find and kill the hot hive Q in the original brood box, add a frame of eggs from a nice-natured colony and then feed. Seven days later remove all EQC's NOT on the introduced frame of eggs.

Yes that is the way to go!
Mark all of the frames containing brood from the hot hive (with a red uniposca?) so you can identify them.
To find and destroy the hot queen do half an AS putting all frames less bees above a qx...
24 hrs later take of top box( q-) and set aside... four days later remove all q cells and use brood for new colonies.

Hot hive box( below qx, will have hot queen and her drones..... take away from apiary at least 3 miles and throw onto a white sheet.. find queen and cull... drones will fly away.
If you have the heart.. chuck the whole lot in a pond... the witches will float to the surface and you can catch and cull them!

You do not want that nasty gene in the population!

Chons da

 

[Apimama]

Move the hot hive to a new location and replace it with an empty brood box containing a frame of eggs from a nice-natured colony (one worth breeding from), a frame of emerging brood, a frame of pollen/stores and the remainder filled out with drawn comb or foundation.

After 24 hours find and kill the hot hive Q in the original brood box, add a frame of eggs from a nice-natured colony and then feed. Seven days later remove all EQC's NOT on the introduced frame of eggs.

Newbie question:

In this situation, when adding the frames of eggs and brood to the empty brood box, would you add them along with nurse bees attached? If so, won't the returning nasty fliers attack them? If not then wouldn't there ne no nurse bees to tend to the introduced larvae?

 

[jeff33]

Thanks all. She has already been destroyed around 10 days ago using the same method mentioned above. I introduced a new mated queen soon after that in her travelling cage leaving the entrance blocked for 2 days. They seem OK with her hence why I removed the tape but they killed her. In insight I should have used the push in but the thought of having to get in this hive again put me off!! The frame of bias they now have is from my best queen and emergency QCs will emerge in 8-9 days.

The dilemma is to let them get on with it but won't have a laying queen for another 3 weeks or make up a nuc with the remaining brood and nurse bees to which I will add a mated queen. Older flying bees on original site will be dispatched.

 

[badger28]

Thanks all. She has already been destroyed around 10 days ago using the same method mentioned above. I introduced a new mated queen soon after that in her travelling cage leaving the entrance blocked for 2 days. They seem OK with her hence why I removed the tape but they killed her. In insight I should have used the push in but the thought of having to get in this hive again put me off!! The frame of bias they now have is from my best queen and emergency QCs will emerge in 8-9 days.

The dilemma is to let them get on with it but won't have a laying queen for another 3 weeks or make up a nuc with the remaining brood and nurse bees to which I will add a mated queen. Older flying bees on original site will be dispatched.

I had a similar situation. Angry hive which killed 2 purchased Queens.

I finally got them Q+ by doing the following. Made up a nuc (frames from hot hive and 2 others, thinking here was that the 2 other hives will be much more likely to accept the queen). Added a new purchased queen and push in cage to protect her for a week.

Then after a week I allowed the queen out of the cage in the nuc.

Following this I did a paper unite on the original hot hive, who were hopelessly queenless by now.

Within 2 days they had got through and mingled.

Have done this twice now and it has worked both times.

 

[Millet]

I have a mental hive Jeff.. I will be making nucs up soon for next year with mated Queens..instead of taking brood from my productive colonies I will be splatting this angry Queen and making nucs from this colony..I did the same last year and it worked well.

 

[coffindodger]

........ I introduced a new mated queen soon after that in her travelling cage leaving the entrance blocked for 2 days. They seem OK with her hence why I removed the tape but they killed her. In insight I should have used the push in ......

Having gone through this more than once, I've found that they can also seem quite happy with the new queen in a push in cage, but then kill her when she is finally released. That said, the push in cage is definitely safer.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Just bought two mesh push ins from thrones for when needed

 

[mazzamazda]

You have to remove any chance of them making a new queen, no eggs no larvae, you will see how they change their tune once they run out of options. +1 for a push in cage, moved around if necessary and only remove once she is properly accepted, no more than a few bees wandering accross. I have had one queen in a cage now for 9 days.

 

[Haughton Honey]

You have to remove any chance of them making a new queen, no eggs no larvae, you will see how they change their tune once they run out of options. +1 for a push in cage, moved around if necessary and only remove once she is properly accepted, no more than a few bees wandering accross. I have had one queen in a cage now for 9 days.

Agreed.

Make them ‘hopelessly queenless’.

 

[Poly Hive]

And people are so keen to have a swarm arrive. This thread just goes to show that not all swarms are good to receive.

PH

 

[maddydog]

You have to remove any chance of them making a new queen, no eggs no larvae, you will see how they change their tune once they run out of options. +1 for a push in cage, moved around if necessary and only remove once she is properly accepted, no more than a few bees wandering accross. I have had one queen in a cage now for 9 days.

A flow appears to help - natural or artificial

 

[maddydog]

And people are so keen to have a swarm arrive. This thread just goes to show that not all swarms are good to receive.

PH

A guy on Twitter has taken a hit to his business after a swarm he collected ended up passing on EFB to his colonies.

 

[Newbeeneil]

A guy on Twitter has taken a hit to his business after a swarm he collected ended up passing on EFB to his colonies.

Surely, anyone who runs a bee keeping business and collects swarms is not going to put them anywhere near his business hives until he has checked for foul brood?
I only have a few hives but still put swarms into isolation for a month before thinking about using them or passing them on!
I am always interested in swarms as some of my best genetics seem to have come from them, also some of my worst but these get requeened.

 

[maddydog]

Surely, anyone who runs a bee keeping business and collects swarms is not going to put them anywhere near his business hives until he has checked for foul brood?
I only have a few hives but still put swarms into isolation for a month before thinking about using them or passing them on!
I am always interested in swarms as some of my best genetics seem to have come from them, also some of my worst but these get requeened.

Very wise!

All swarms I collect stay at home with me where I only keep them and no other colonies.
Collecting swarms from known areas of EFB/AFB maybe not the best idea.