Cut Comb frame.

[user 20297]

Dani's photo is obviously of sections with foundation.
Has anyone used sections with just a bead of wax as a "starter strip" to minimise the amount of wax (foundation being thicker than natural comb)?
I've been wondering about sections or cut comb as it seems there's a fair bit of heather in mine from August.

I don't want to have anyone else's foundation in my cut comb, regardless of how thin. So I'm planning what I've seen described elsewhere for cut-comb: get it drawn and then spun out from the OSR flow and then put back that empty comb at the beginning of August.

 

[Sutty]

I don't want to have anyone else's foundation in my cut comb, regardless of how thin. So I'm planning what I've seen described elsewhere for cut-comb: get it drawn and then spun out from the OSR flow and then put back that empty comb at the beginning of August.

Nice idea, but not sure you could spin out sections?

 

[user 20297]

Nice idea, but not sure you could spin out sections?

Good point....I didn't think of that....I'm just using shallow frames, so obviously an easier challenge.

 

[Sutty]

Good point....I didn't think of that....I'm just using shallow frames, so obviously an easier challenge.

I'm not sure you couldn't though!
Anyone?

 

[user 20297]

I'm not sure you couldn't though!
Anyone?

I have bought some of the red plastic frames that come with two vertical strengtheners fitted, which divides the frame into three sections.
Crude and messy I'm sure, but I wondered if I might get some rough squares by cutting those out of a foundationless comb with a sharp knife?
I'm certainly going to try it for my personal supply.

 

[Erichalfbee]

but I wondered if I might get some rough squares by cutting those out of a foundationless comb with a sharp knife?

Yes, then you'll get square cut comb but that's not the same as a section

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

Never tried spinning sections out, but we do spin our rounds. The extractor cage is slightly modified to accommodate Manleys which helped.
Would imagine hanging sections should be ok to spin, but they are ridiculously fiddly and I really don't like the plastic inserts.

 

[user 20297]

Yes, then you'll get square cut comb but that's not the same as a section

I know.

 

[Poly Hive]

Square sections are tricky which is why the rounds were invented. If you look back oh yes history again, there were to the modern eye massive crops of sections taken especially in Ireland. Literally hundreds of sections per colony. More the bees were known as section bees as they withstood severe compression with out swarming.

So here's the thing, getting back on topic, the SN sidebar is 7/8ths (when are we going metric?) and the Manley is 3/4" wider. Why would I want to have narrow comb rather than thicker given I am aiming to fill a container which is 13/4" deep?

I am not discussing show bench standards I am talking about real world in the shop looking bonny at a sensible price with sensible time input.

PH

 

[Poly Hive]

I don't want to have anyone else's foundation in my cut comb, regardless of how thin. So I'm planning what I've seen described elsewhere for cut-comb: get it drawn and then spun out from the OSR flow and then put back that empty comb at the beginning of August.

One of those in theory it sounds great but it needs more thought as with the best will in the world and barring pressure washing there is going to be contamination of the crop you are aiming at and people in general don't want bricks of honey.

PH

 

[user 20297]

One of those in theory it sounds great but it needs more thought as with the best will in the world and barring pressure washing there is going to be contamination of the crop you are aiming at and people in general don't want bricks of honey.

PH

You spotted flaws that I hadn't thought of. But I'm sure I picked the idea up from somewhere else.
I'm not planning to sell any...just a bit for friends and family. I suppose I was thinking of dry frames such as when I've allowed bees to clean them out. But mid-season that's tricky to organise and might backfire in any case....back to the drawing board.

 

[Ian123]

You spotted flaws that I hadn't thought of. But I'm sure I picked the idea up from somewhere else.
I'm not planning to sell any...just a bit for friends and family. I suppose I was thinking of dry frames such as when I've allowed bees to clean them out. But mid-season that's tricky to organise and might backfire in any case....back to the drawing board.

Using thin foundation does result in better more complete frames but no reason you shouldn’t go ahead and use starter strips for you CC. For better results I’d get them on at the start of your main flow you needn’t put a whole box on and I’d suggest if you keep them central in the box they’ll draw them better. Stick a drawing pin into your CC frames to identify them.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

SN sidebar is 7/8ths (when are we going metric?) and the Manley is 3/4" wider. Why would I want to have narrow comb rather than thicker

the thickness of the comb has nothing to to with the width of the side bar - it's the spacings of the combs that dictates the thickness. Regardless of the sidebar, the bees will draw out the comb until there is a single beespace between them. Basic beginner beekeeping knowledge really. KISS
I've used both Manleys and SN1s - you get the same comb thickness if the frames are spaced accordingly

 

[Ian123]

Using thin foundation does result in better more complete frames but no reason you shouldn’t go ahead and use starter strips for you CC. For better results I’d get them on at the start of your main flow you needn’t put a whole box on and I’d suggest if you keep them central in the box they’ll draw them better. Stick a drawing pin into your CC frames to identify them.

Should have said alternate with some drawn if you have them to encourage the bees to keep the comb straight.

 

[Poly Hive]

There are all sorts of dodges to avoid buying CC foundation and to me, it's adding stress and work for the bees and on that basis in my mind it's not good beekeeping. Surely our job is to aid and guide?

PJH

 

[Bazzer]

There are all sorts of dodges to avoid buying CC foundation and to me, it's adding stress and work for the bees and on that basis in my mind it's not good beekeeping. Surely our job is to aid and guide?

PJH

I have found that if you put a frame with foundation and a foundationless frame with a small guide triangle strip on either side of a brood chamber the bees will draw the foundationless frame first !

 

[Into the lions den]

There are all sorts of dodges to avoid buying CC foundation and to me, it's adding stress and work for the bees and on that basis in my mind it's not good beekeeping. Surely our job is to aid and guide?

PJH

I have posted many times about the economics of various production methods over the years based on some research we did while I was young and stupid back in the 1980's when I had the (foolish as it turned out after the experiments) dream we could do well with heather sections.

There is a definite productivity heirarchy. Ranging from drawn comb deeps at the top to sections at the very bottom. What we definitely DID prove is that starter strips are real false economy, but then people have varying agendas, not all based on economics, and that's fair enough.

The most viable way to produce cut comb, and its the normal in most countries now, is to use DEEP frames. From a BS deep frame you get 10 pieces, from a Langstroth 14...in both cases if completely full. Yes the spacing is narrower so the pieces mostly go out at a nominal (so not less than) 200g...but you get just the same money for a 200g piece as you get for 227g. We DO use a slimmer hard plastic box too, so the 200g is perfect.

Its Calluna and does not run so draining it is pointless. Never cut any blossom honey types as they are generally less shelf stable.

Without going to dig it out again the figs were approximately as follows....treating drawn deeps as the most productive being 100%...the rest of the figures were as a percentage of what you would get from that
Drawn deeps 100
Drawn shallows 80
Foundation deeps 70
Foundation shallows 55
Thin super shallows 45
Starter strip shallows 35
Sections 20

We also find little discernable difference between using a standard thickness of foundation (not the very heavy stuff) and the very thin....the bees move wax to the sidewalls anyway and the difference narrows a lot. These days we never use thin super due to its fragility.

]


200g cut comb pieces and some BS deeps of heather that would be destined for the cutting room and give 10 pieces each.

The bees prefer big combs over small and as someone earlier in the thread said...KISS..the bees tell you what they like best, not a showbench judge.

 

[user 20297]

There are all sorts of dodges to avoid buying CC foundation and to me, it's adding stress and work for the bees and on that basis in my mind it's not good beekeeping. Surely our job is to aid and guide?

PJH

The avoidance of the use of foundation for the production of cut-comb is obviously contrary to the interests of efficient and bountiful comb production, but using foundationless frames for the same purpose is definitely not to be regarded as "not good beekeeping".

If, as ITLD says, you have a "varying agenda", eg. not wanting inclusions in your honey of unknown origin, you only need a small amount of cut-comb, you like to let bees do things as naturally as possible on occasion, then avoiding buying CC foundation is not your objective.

Neither of us can know for certain, but I think that the balance of probability would say that using foundation actually adds rather than reduces stress for the bees.

 

[Ian123]

I have posted many times about the economics of various production methods over the years based on some research we did while I was young and stupid back in the 1980's when I had the (foolish as it turned out after the experiments) dream we could do well with heather sections.

There is a definite productivity heirarchy. Ranging from drawn comb deeps at the top to sections at the very bottom. What we definitely DID prove is that starter strips are real false economy, but then people have varying agendas, not all based on economics, and that's fair enough.

The most viable way to produce cut comb, and its the normal in most countries now, is to use DEEP frames. From a BS deep frame you get 10 pieces, from a Langstroth 14...in both cases if completely full. Yes the spacing is narrower so the pieces mostly go out at a nominal (so not less than) 200g...but you get just the same money for a 200g piece as you get for 227g. We DO use a slimmer hard plastic box too, so the 200g is perfect.

Its Calluna and does not run so draining it is pointless. Never cut any blossom honey types as they are generally less shelf stable.

Without going to dig it out again the figs were approximately as follows....treating drawn deeps as the most productive being 100%...the rest of the figures were as a percentage of what you would get from that
Drawn deeps 100
Drawn shallows 80
Foundation deeps 70
Foundation shallows 55
Thin super shallows 45
Starter strip shallows 35
Sections 20

We also find little discernable difference between using a standard thickness of foundation (not the very heavy stuff) and the very thin....the bees move wax to the sidewalls anyway and the difference narrows a lot. These days we never use thin super due to its fragility.

View attachment 35400]View attachment 35399


200g cut comb pieces and some BS deeps of heather that would be destined for the cutting room and give 10 pieces each.

The bees prefer big combs over small and as someone earlier in the thread said...KISS..the bees tell you what they like best, not a showbench judge.

Hi Murray I hope you’ll be offering those CC boxes on your web site?

 

[Into the lions den]

Hi Murray I hope you’ll be offering those CC boxes on your web site?

I will have to ask permission from their owner. They are supplied to us by the main cut comb customer. Very similar to the New Zealand cut comb boxes often seen at retail but smaller sized to take 200g instead of 340g that the square NZ ones take.

I don't think selling them will be a problem, but they are considerably more expensive that the 'margarine tub' style. However they are SO robust...never come loose, and folk cannot poke a finger into them.